Author Topic: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials  (Read 2856 times)

Offline Gman

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2012, 05:13:38 PM »
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Fighter, sure, but air superiority? Nah.

I agree with all of you points Krusty.  But the F35 ?? -
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Fighter, sure, but air superiority? Nah.
  That applies here as well.  How Mace described the F14 being able to beat threats like the SU27 etc applies still to the F35 really - it's lethality is all based off its senors and very capable weapons like the Aim9X etc.  In terms of performance that you were just comparing the F18 with the F16 and F14, the F35 from what we've been given so far isn't going to "perform" any better than any of them.  There are HUNDREDS of videos and articles with very well known aviation experts raving on and on about how it has no thrust, can't turn, can't run, can't bla bla bla.  If even half of it is true, then it sure won't be an "air superiority" anything in terms of the airplane performing.  It'll just be brand new (which I agree with you, is needed).

I thought a lot about what Mace wrote about the F14, and how if he had to engage one of these new super threats he wasn't too plussed about it as he seems to have supreme confidence in the ability to detect that threat first, and that the weapons available will kill it.  Really, it makes perfect sense today.  You don't really need to be able to pull 11 G's sustained in a 50 foot circle when you have a missile that will outperform ANY threat at any distance or airspeed.  What is really needed then is the ability to ENSURE you get that first shot, so that enemy plane that is as good or better than your airframe is burning in pieces before it can prove that.

I for one am looking forward to the F35, as Canada has been flying the same time out F18's since 1982 or so, and we are down to about 60 that are up to modern standards, not counting our 2 seat trainers, plus 20 in war storage.  While the F35 won't be the optimal fighter for flying way up here in all this huge arctic airspace protecting all of you Yanks from Russian bombers (yes you can laugh), at least it'll be brand new like Krusty said, and have some pretty crazy sensors and new weapons.

Personally, I think in ten years or so they'll have fielded a small airborne laser in that 100kw or whatever range they are going for and it'll just be PEW PEW PEW for air combat after that, and airplane performance won't matter so much as their speed and targeting capability for a directed energy weapon.

Offline Rich52

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »
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Man, this is so full of it I don't know where to begin.  I do first have to applaud the fact that you've put more nonsense into fewer lines than most people on this board are capable of and that's saying a lot. I could write a tome about all the things you have wrong here but I'll try to just hit a few of the wavetops here.


Maybe had you not started off the post like an fool we could have had a good converstion. Its true some F14s were upgraded to limited bombtruck upgrades towards the end of their service lives but that was never part of their intial design. F6s and F7s were a lot cheaper when the 14 came on line, an aircraft designed from the start to protect CVs from Soviet maritime strike aircraft and ATA dominance. At this role the Tomcats exceled but they were very expensive to maintain and it would have cost a fortune to upgrade the entire fleet to a true multi-role capability.
http://www.topedge.com/alley/text/other/bombcat.htm

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The table below features full dates for each squadron. The F-14 "Upgrade" is a separate program but closely linked to the LANTIRN upgrade. It fits systems from the F-14D into F-14A/B's, providing them with a digital architecture, allowing the aircraft to carry advanced weapons such as Paveway III LGB's and in future types such as the JSOW (Joint Stand Off Weapon) and JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Weapon). Also upgraded is the RWR, the brand new AN/ALR-67. Bol chaff/flare launchers are fitted, increasing the number of expendables carried. Radar upgrades and a NVG compatible cockpit complete the "Upgrade".
Initially the Navy ordered 13 LANTIRN pods, since then at least another 25 have been ordered. As well as pods F-14's have been undergoing the modifications necessary for them to carry the pod. During 1997 pods and modified aircraft were in relatively short supply, thus they were transferred to squadrons on deployment, squadrons residing at NAS Oceana often had no aircraft modified for LANTIRN. As more aircraft undergo modification this need to transfer aircraft has slowed and will soon stop. The decision, early in 1997, to reduce the numbers of F-14's in the Fleet (due to higher than expected fatigue) has meant less airframes for modification and thus the program's completion earlier.
With it's long range and ability to carry (and if needed bring back) a heavy load of ordnance the F-14 has become the carrier's deep strike platform, in effect replacing the A-6. Although not a true all weather platform (the FLIR's effectiveness is downgraded by cloud or rain) the F-14 is highly effective in the self-escorted strike role, leaving the shorter ranged F/A-18's to carry out missions closer to the carrier. In theory the F-14 will be replaced by th F/A-18E/F, but even that will not have the same range in strike missions (475nm for the F/A-18 compared with the F-14's 650nm). The Bombcat was recently called upon to remind Saddam Hussein of the consquences of defying the UN, aircraft from VF-211 and VF-102 flying missions as part of the Southern Watch operation over Iraq.


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The F-14A has a long history of accidents and has been grounded at least twice since it was introduced to fleet service in 1973. Pilots have criticized its TF-30 engines as underpowered and unreliable and complained that the two-seat fighter is difficult and dangerous to fly at low speeds and low altitude.

There have been 110 "Class A Mishaps"-those with fatalities or million-dollar-plus damage, or both-involving the F-14A and more than half of them took place during landing approaches.

According to the Pentagon, all production versions of the F-14A last year had a rate of 5.76 Class A mishaps per 100,000 flying hours, more than double the 2.07 rate per 100,000 hours for the more modern F/A-18 carrier fighter the Navy also uses.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-02-28/news/9502280127_1_kara-hultgreen-engine-failure-uss-abraham-lincoln

Maybe next time reply like an actual human being and we can have a legitimate, respectful discussion. The maintenance issues and costs of the F14 fleet wasnt exactly a secret.
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2012, 06:22:15 PM »
What i find comedic about all of this is the military is already testing "and has for years" long range missiles that can go mach 5+ and hit any target by VISUAL tracking from half a world away. "with precision so precise alot of them are "iron heads and use kinetic impact only"


What is also funny is the fact we use a joint tracking system for everything, everything is connected to everything else, if one see's it, everything see's it, and if ones on the ground,ones in space,and ones in air,then you have a three way tracking of all angles,speed and heading. (Land,sea,air,space)


WE "the united states" already know there is no such thing as "pure stealth" When you have something the size of a bird, or golf ball moving at 800+ mph at 30k and higher you can bet your bellybutton its not a bird.


Hell ask any "fighter pilot" these days and they will tell you one thing, we aren't (fighter pilots), we are buss drivers..and the payload is our passenger's. We take off, fly to a target.. press a button and fly home, that's that. Its the same reason no one should fear the newest Russian and Chinese stealth fighters, or the "can turn on a dime and stall to do amazing moves!" they are so well known for. Its always a moot point when a thrust vectoring aim9-x is locked onto you by 3+ targets all telling that missiles EXACTLY what said target is doing. Russian's & chinese should invest in ONE thing,and one thing only. A ejection seat that can get there pilot out of THAT aircraft ASAP should any missiles launch or hostile action is detected. because that's EXACTLY what they will need to save there fighting forces arse's.


:Edit: Lets not even forget the fact we have been pioneering in stealth missile and bomb tech for a long time as well. (1954-60 and on)


The f-22 & F-35 will simply be one thing, weapon delivery systems.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 06:28:48 PM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 06:53:33 PM »
It seems like Richie wants his  :ahand handed to him by Mace again.

I wonder who's gonna win this bout...the blowhard or the guy that has real world experience flying the Tomcat?

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Offline Stoney

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2012, 08:57:45 PM »
P.S. I wouldn't say that simply because you can put missiles on a plane that it is an air superiority fighter. Air Superiority is taking control of an entire airspace over enemy territory, denying them the ability to fly in that territory across a wide envelop of altitudes and speeds, and maintaining that superiority. The F-15 is by design an air superiority fighter. The F-18 by design was a "normal" fighter, so semantics aside I don't think it qualifies. It cannot dominate an air space either because of lack of range or lack of speed or what have you. It's a "fighter" -- but not a "superiority fighter." The Tomcat wasn't one either, being designed as a pure interceptor for nuclear bombers. Sure, they trained and practiced dogfighting, etc, and it could fire plenty of missiles, etc, but the desing wasn't "air superiority" per se. That is what I meant by saying the hornet wasn't an air superiority fighter. Fighter, sure, but air superiority? Nah.

Semantics are important.  There is a defined difference in the U.S. military between "air superiority" and "air supremacy".  Air Force doctrine is built around "air supremacy", whereas U.S. Navy doctrine is built around "air superiority".  "Air superiority" is defined as:  "That degree of dominance in the air battle of one force over another that permits the conduct of operations by the former and its related land, sea, and air forces at a given time and place without prohibitive interference by opposing air forces."  "Air supremacy" is defined as:  "that degree of air superiority wherein the opposing air force is incapable of effective interference."  The Air Force tries to dominate airspace in a manner that allows aircraft like cargo planes, air refuelers, command and control aircraft, attack aircraft, etc. the ability to operate unhindered, requiring no escort, etc.  Air superiority means that the air dominance, as mentioned, is temporary, localized, and eventually that chunk of airspace reverts back to neutral or enemy control.  So in that sense, the F-18 could be considered an effective air-superiority fighter in that its limited range, weaponry, and performance is sufficient to accomplish local air superiority that allows whatever mission to be accomplished, before the entire friendly force withdraws.  Escort missions, for the most part, aren't even in the Air Force lexicon, because in a air supremacy doctrine, they're unnecessary.  Escort missions, on the other hand, are a fundamental part of Navy aviation operations, because in air superiority doctrine, you only intend to control airspace temporarily.

EDIT:  The F-15 was designed as a "air supremacy" fighter--that's its role.  The F-22 was designed as a "air supremacy" fighter.  Naval aviation isn't doctrinally tasked, organized, nor equipped for air supremacy.  Its aircraft reflect this, as does the Air Force's.  This type of language is extremely important (and I can't stress this enough) in the way each service approaches its assigned mission.  These doctrinal differences even conflict in areas, which leads to misunderstandings between the services about how each does its job, and how to interact, regardless of whether or not senior military leadership or the civilian leadership is cognizant of it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:12:30 PM by Stoney »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2012, 10:40:48 PM »


Maybe had you not started off the post like an fool we could have had a good converstion. Its true some F14s were upgraded to limited bombtruck upgrades towards the end of their service lives but that was never part of their intial design. F6s and F7s were a lot cheaper when the 14 came on line, an aircraft designed from the start to protect CVs from Soviet maritime strike aircraft and ATA dominance. At this role the Tomcats exceled but they were very expensive to maintain and it would have cost a fortune to upgrade the entire fleet to a true multi-role capability.

Maybe next time reply like an actual human being and we can have a legitimate, respectful discussion. The maintenance issues and costs of the F14 fleet wasnt exactly a secret.
Fair enough but maybe next time you don't jump into a conversation and start an argument about something that is 1) not what I said and 2) irrelevant.  Do that and I will be happy to respond differently but I will apologize if I came off ticked, because, quite frankly, I was.  After decades of hearing the same old recycled claptrap and myths about the F-14 vs F-18 debacle I do get short fused.  Sorry if I went overboard on you.

Here, respectfully and like an actual human being are my final comments.

What I was trying to explain is that you're mixing apples and oranges.  The discussion was not about a stopgap measure to give precision air-to-ground capability to old F-14s (the program you refer to was called "Quick Strike"), the reliability of 15-year-old Tomcats, or how crappy the TF-30s were (Apples) but rather whether the Tomcat 21 or Hornet 2000 was the better plan for a future Naval strike/fighter aircraft after both the Navy's NATF (Navy version of the F-22) and A-12 (A-6 replacement) programs were cancelled (Oranges).  Yes, two-decade-old airframes, even "upgraded" but still old ones, are extremely hard and expensive to maintain but new ones are not and there was simply not that big of a difference between new-construction aircraft.  Quick Strike was a stopgap program to upgrade old airframes that came about AFTER the Navy chose the Hornet 2000 over the Tomcat 21, it never was an alternative to the Hornet.

You are absolutely correct that engines were a huge problem but the problem was limited to F-14A's with TF-30's, not D's with F110's and, with a couple of exceptions (principally about Hultgreen's mishap but that's another subject), the article you link to describes it well.  The F110 engine had none of these problems and was a joy to fly.

My assertion is simple.  The Navy made a huge mistake in building F/A-18E/F rather than an F/A-14E.  I didn't say a thing about upgrading existing F-14 airframes and accepting the maintainability issues of old airframes.  If that were what I was saying then you have a point but nowhere did I say or intend to say that the Navy should have simply upgraded existing airframes rather than buy Super Hornets.  New construction F/A-14E's with the capabilities and internal redesign based on Grumman's Tomcat 21 concept would have given us far greater capability than the F/A-18E/F at only slightly higher maintenance costs (it would still have wingsweep). In the end, development of an F/A-14E would have been cheaper than the Super Hornet because so much work had just been done on the F-14D.  It would have been cheaper to flight test and produce because the airframe would have stayed the same (with the possible exception of an expanded glove area).

An F/A-14E would have been even better with the F110-GE-429 engines which would have given an additional 4k to 5k lbs of thrust over the F110-GE-400's in the F-14D.  A full Monty Tomcat 21 (there were actually several proposed Tomcat 21 packages) would have been a true 4.5 generation fighter with fly-by-wire, AESA, greater maneuverability, more thrust, more fuel, and even greater range, payload and speed and been still been cheaper than the F/A-18E/F.
 
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« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 11:19:21 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2012, 12:16:37 AM »
Mace, I would differentiate between "aging gracefully" and "still being a capable performer"...

I believe the retirement of the Tomcat was hastened by a long string of crashes where otherwise perfectly normal Tomcats ended up going into the drink, and no reason was found other than age of the airframe? It seems (from an outsider perspective) that this sped up the retirement of the platform, and if I recall there were a couple of fleet-wide groundings trying to figure otu what happened.

So yes, while F-15s are aging as well, so were the F-14s. Each in their own way. Even the F-16s are so heavily patched with stiffener plates it's ridiculous. The only semi modern plane we have was the F-22 and it was cancelled. We need something new. Fresh off the production lines, with no stress on the airframes.

P.S. I wouldn't say that simply because you can put missiles on a plane that it is an air superiority fighter. Air Superiority is taking control of an entire airspace over enemy territory, denying them the ability to fly in that territory across a wide envelop of altitudes and speeds, and maintaining that superiority. The F-15 is by design an air superiority fighter. The F-18 by design was a "normal" fighter, so semantics aside I don't think it qualifies. It cannot dominate an air space either because of lack of range or lack of speed or what have you. It's a "fighter" -- but not a "superiority fighter." The Tomcat wasn't one either, being designed as a pure interceptor for nuclear bombers. Sure, they trained and practiced dogfighting, etc, and it could fire plenty of missiles, etc, but the desing wasn't "air superiority" per se. That is what I meant by saying the hornet wasn't an air superiority fighter. Fighter, sure, but air superiority? Nah.
Krusty, if you check out my last post I think I answer your question about the airframe.  Yes, old airframes are high maintenance, there's no doubt about it.  What I object to is the overly simplistic point of view that, by definition, the F-14 was hard to maintain.  The problem was that the last airframe was produced in 1990 and we didn't even procure the airplane fast enough for the 10 years before that to keep the average age of the fleet down before production ended.

As for "air superiority" Stoney describes the doctrine well but the issue of what is or isn't an "air superiority fighter" is an interesting discussion.  First, you have to remember that air superiority is a mission, not a fighter.  The same is true for interceptor and fleet air defense.  Sure, some airplanes are optimized for a particular mission (some may actually limited to that mission) and become known for that role but the F-14 could do all three missions easily because it was the most flexible fighter in the world.  The swing wing (pure freaking magic), ability to carry Phoenix, Sparrow and Sidewinder, a gun and awesome radar made for an exceptional package and arguments to the contrary are specious.  Second, air superiority vs air supremacy is a numbers game.  A CVN doesn't carry enough fighters to establish and maintain air supremacy over a broad area say, like Iraq.  The Navy's more limited numbers of fighters means it establishes air superiority, more correctly local air superiority for a limited period of time.  All of this obviously becomes easier the more CVN's you have in the area because, as I said, lot's of it is simply a numbers game.

So, what missions could the F-14 do well?  Actually, all of them and it did them very well.

Fleet air defense mission?  Of course because the F-14 had the range and endurance plus the AWG-9/APG-71 and Phoenix missile.  Was it just a fleet air defense fighter?  Absolutely not.  The Navy experimented with two other options designed solely for Fleet Air Defense, one of its own volition and the other was forced on it.  The F-6 Missileer was designed in the late 1950's and was a straight wing plane that looked similar to the A-6 without the sexiness (jk, the A-6 was an ugly crate also).  All it was to do was to hang around on a CAP station carrying a bunch of missiles to defend the fleet but was slow and that was all it could do so it was dumped.  The crew even sat side-by-side so they could hold hands.  In other words, it wasn't a fighter.  The failure of the F-6 led to F-8 Crusader then the F-4 Phantom, both true fighters although the F-4 was more of an interceptor.  When the F-4 needed replacement SECDEF mandated that the Navy would use a version of the F-111.  The crew also sat side-by-side holding hands but the F-111 was at least fast.  Unfortunately it was huge, couldn't turn, and had lousy visibility.  In short, although the USAF calls anything that isn't a tanker or a B-52 a fighter, the F-111 was not a fighter.  It probably could have served as a Navy bomber if it weren't huge but that wasn't needed because the Navy had A-6's and A-7s.  The Navy knew it needed a fleet air defense fighter that could hang out on station and Grumman designed them one.

Interceptor?  The F-101, F-104, F-4, F-106, etc., were all interceptors.  They could get there quickly but couldn't turn worth a darn because they had wings optimized for speed, not lift. The Navy needed an interceptor that could launch straight off the deck and haul balls to a long-range target and kill it with forward quarter, beyond-visual-range missiles.  Grumman designed them that to.

Air superiority?  Download the Phoenix rails and load up four Sparrows and four Sidewinders and the F-14 could turn with most anything out there and was competitive against the F-15 (which also carried four Sparrows and four Sidewinders).  Yes, I know some will object and there are a couple of caveats to the F-15.  The F-15 could out turn the F-14 at high altitude because that's where the F-15's wing was optimized to fight; however, the F-14 could out turn it at low altitudes where low Mach meant we could get our wings out.  Even with the TF-30's we did well because the F-14 maintained E much better with the high-aspect-ratio wings (out of course).  With F-110's it was eye-watering.  So yes, Grumman built that also.

The F-18E/F?   Hummmm.  I agree with Stoney.  It's basic role is self-escorted attack but leave off the bombs, drop the two inboard pylons, upload a single centerline tank, AMRAAM and AIM-9X and sure, it could do the air superiority mission.  Because it's slower I'd say it's not as good for either fleet air defense or interceptor.  Defending a CV battle group against incoming supersonic bombers and missiles means you need to get places quickly or stay on a long range CAP for an extended period of time neither of which the E/F excels at.

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Offline icepac

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2012, 11:04:37 AM »
187 F22s were delivered and the line was "mothballed" so they can resume production easily.

USA has all the F22s they will likely ever need.


Offline Rich52

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Re: Jet Aircraft Video (not WWII) Recent F-35B Sea Trials
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2012, 07:41:27 PM »
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Fair enough but maybe next time you don't jump into a conversation and start an argument about something that is 1) not what I said and 2) irrelevant.  Do that and I will be happy to respond differently but I will apologize if I came off ticked, because, quite frankly, I was.  After decades of hearing the same old recycled claptrap and myths about the F-14 vs F-18 debacle I do get short fused.  Sorry if I went overboard on you.

Well at least your not one of Ack-Acks tools, "does he have any left"?, so we'll move on respectfully.

Dont take things so personally. The only point I was making was the decision to cut off the Tomcat was one based on cost and mission projection. It was a hard sell looking around for enemies, at the time, to justify the $$ needed to both upgrade and build new Tomcat airframes at the time.

You can say whatever you want back. It wont "tick me off". I promise.
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