A tale of two spins

[FLS]

I had my analog trims centered.

[colmbo]

A bit rushed, gotta get to my shift in the ER but whipped a few spins out. 

I didn't find that trim assisted in recovery.  And for me there is no recovery, left or right, using only rudder and elevator.

[hitech]

A bit rushed, gotta get to my shift in the ER but whipped a few spins out. 

I didn't find that trim assisted in recovery.  And for me there is no recovery, left or right, using only rudder and elevator.

I assume this is with power off?

HiTech

[Traveler]

I"ve tried it many different ways, I can recovery spins left and right with Power on .  But Power off, in the P38L I can't stop the rotation  to the right by just using normal spin recovery technique.  Doesn't matter if I have combat trim on or off or how much out of trim the aircraft is.  I can always recovery from a left spin and with power off, never recovery from a right spin.  I've used different types of sticks and even just the mouse and keyboard for rudder control.   no dice.

[Traveler]

I assume this is with power off?

HiTech

HiTech, I noticed something different between the film that badboy produced of his Right Spin in which he is able to perform a normal spin recovery using rudder and my film of my right spin in which I am unable to perform a normal spin recovery.

The films appear very very similar except as his aircraft is descending in a right spin the airspeed is increasing through out his spin and recovery where the airspeed in my film increases to a point, 127 mph true, and no more.   I noticed that in my spins to the left, airspeed continues to increase through out the spin and recovery.

Just wondering?   

[colmbo]

I assume this is with power off?

HiTech

Idle power.

[hitech]

I have tested repeatedly and get the same results. With and without combat trim.

I have not found any difference left or right.

All testing started at 10k about 180 mph

1. Full power , slow to stall speed, full back stick full rudder,
2. Plane begins spin and proceeds to deepen.
3. Set to idle power.
4. Center stick and rudder.
5. Let spin continue 2 or 3 turns to ensure plane is in a fully developed spin.
6. Full opposite rudder. (not much response).
7. Full forward stick while maintaining opposite rudder. Spin rate increase while nose lowers but will not stop.
8. Apply ailerons in the direction of the spin. (spin stops in about 3/4 to 1.5 turns)

HiTech

[colmbo]

I too get reliable recovery if pro spin aileron is used.

[FLS]

After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.

[Traveler]

After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.

What HiTech was looking for was a difference in recovery technique, you don't need aileron, he does.  That to me is a difference.  I only need to use aileron to stop the rotation in the right spin, left I only use rudder.  again a difference.  Could be a difference in the controllers .  All we do is calibrate and hope for the best.  I'm guessing that it's always been this way just was never  examined before.

[FLS]

What HiTech was looking for was a difference in recovery technique, you don't need aileron, he does.  That to me is a difference.  I only need to use aileron to stop the rotation in the right spin, left I only use rudder.  again a difference.  Could be a difference in the controllers .  All we do is calibrate and hope for the best.  I'm guessing that it's always been this way just was never  examined before.

I think the difference in my case is simply in the order of inputs. When I used rudder first instead of elevator I got the same results. I posted my sequence to clarify why my results might be different.

I agree with you that you should see the same result from a left or right spin and perhaps your controller is a factor.

[hitech]

FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.

I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.

Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.

HiTech

[Traveler]

FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.

I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.

Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.

HiTech

I agree, left and right both recovered.  It appears that it must be done in that order and only in that order.

[FLS]

I think the difference in my case is simply in the order of inputs. When I used rudder first instead of elevator I got the same results. I posted my sequence to clarify why my results might be different.

I'm sorry this wasn't clear. I meant to say with rudder first I got the same results as Hitech. Power to idle in both cases.

[TequilaChaser]

I do think that something or someone is doing something different or settings are possibly different,  trying to recover  the right spin ....... but what ever it is I do not know

I use the spin recovery steps in the following order

S - Stick nuetral / Stick push full forward
T - Throttle off  ( added edit today 1/19:  this happens in quick sucession to stick neutral )
O - Opposite Rudder to counter the Spin direction  ( added edit today 1/19:  this happens in quick sucession immediately after stick forward and the nose is pointed below the horizon by more than 20 to 30 degrees )
P - Pull stick back gradually as speed increases to level out of dive

I have always used this technique for spin recovery for Tail spins / incipient spins........
I understand that an incipient spin is not what one would call a "developed spin"......... it is a spin in the first 1 to 2 rotations

and was figuring that is why Badboy posted he let his test drop 2 K to get a fully developed spin going so as their was no confusion  of his test data / film

hope this helps

TC

After the spin is established I push the nose down first then add opposite rudder and it recovers right away without aileron input. I know the P-38 manual says rudder first for 1/2 turn then nose down but, as Hitech noted, that increases the spin rate.

FLS: I think you have just solved the riddle.

I found that if I briskly apply full down and then snap in rudder ,the plane will recover from the spin with power off.

Hence the differences appear to be simply the pilots technique.

HiTech

I agree, left and right both recovered.  It appears that it must be done in that order and only in that order.

I am glad that everyone was able to figure it out, why some could recover from either direction , and others were not able to.....

I went and looked at the Spin Recovery tips  on our Trainers Website, and remembered that our graphics ( thanks Badboy for the help on them ) actually used the P38 series plane  along with a spitfire for demonstration purposes.....

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/spins/spins.htm


wtg  FLS, for figuring out why the others were having problems trying to recover from the spin to the right   

 

TC