Of course I don't have the film, but...

[FLS]

I don't know much about all this flow business, but it sounds like what you're saying is you got confused about the difference between a one circle merge and a lufbery when trying to read that USAF and USN stuff.

No I didn't. What confused me was not realizing that a two circle fight could have flow or counter flow while two circle flow is always a tail chase. It's likely because I learned the USN version first. The two services sometimes use terms differently but in this case the key word was fight vs flow. A Lufbery is a tail chase and modern usage implies a stable condition with neither aircraft gaining advantage. A one circle or two circle fight could possibly develop into a Lufbery but a Lufbery is always two circle flow.

[Mar]

Wow the more I read that the more I confused myself...

So two circle flow is tail chase, but what exactly is a two circle fight if it could go either way?

A one circle fight could turn into a lufbery... [edit] Wait, so does this mean a tail chase that settles with neither guy gaining?[/edit]

I think I have the same problem you had, learned it the USN way and now don't know what the AF is barking about.

[FLS]

The practical application is knowing if you're in a radius fight or a turn rate fight. A flat scissors is one circle flow so it's a radius fight even though you never complete a circle. A rolling scissors is two circle flow so it's a turn rate fight. If you have a turn rate advantage over the bandit you want a tail chase. If you have a radius advantage in a tail chase you want to change the flow to one circle, change a rolling scissors to a flat scissors, to take advantage of your turn radius advantage.

I know this is a little advanced but I wanted to explain why I thought the Wiki illustration was wrong.

[Muzzy]

Oh let's just throw this into 3 dimensions why don't we?

The situation I described is kind of a turn fight in the vertical, isn't it? So how are turn radii affected by the addition of a vertical component? For example, in a completely vertical engagement when you are essentially looping once or twice to get around on each other?

[FLS]

When you fly a loop you want to hear the stall horn, as you slow down while going up ease your pull while maintaining the stall horn, you can pull hard when you're inverted because gravity is helping you, as you descend you can pull harder to maintain the stall horn, if you get tunnel vision at the bottom of the loop and can't hear the stall horn you're too fast. You can use flaps at the top of the loop to get your nose over quicker.

[Randy1]

Making good decisions takes practice.  Although ACMs are important, the most important fight element are the decision points.  Making the right decision will be the difference between killing or being killed.

[FLS]

Making good decisions takes practice.  Although ACMs are important, the most important fight element are the decision points.  Making the right decision will be the difference between killing or being killed.

You want to explain how to do that? 

[SPKmes]

You want to explain how to do that? 

stay high, stay fast 

[Zoney]

before I became Luftwaffe I flew that bird quite a bit.  Cannons are amazing and being able to drop the gear to keep her from getting too fast while dropping in on Buffs is priceless.  It will also take quite a beating and get you home.  To get a killstreak like that you, as has been stated, need to stay high, stay fast, and have patience.  It does remind me a bit of the 190A8 in how I used to fly it.

[FLS]

Oh let's just throw this into 3 dimensions why don't we?

The situation I described is kind of a turn fight in the vertical, isn't it? So how are turn radii affected by the addition of a vertical component? For example, in a completely vertical engagement when you are essentially looping once or twice to get around on each other?

It occurred to me I didn't really answer this question when I suggested how to fly a tight loop.

In level flight lift opposes gravity. In a level turn lift opposes gravity and radial g. In a vertical turn lift opposes radial g but gravity is affecting the aircraft differently for every change in attitude relative to the direction of gravity. This means that at the bottom of a loop gravity adds to the load factor, in a vertical ascent or descent gravity decreases or increases speed, at the top of the loop gravity reduces the load on the wings.

[Puma44]

[FLS]

Thanks Puma. Here's a better egg for radial g.



And my flow diagram for Mar. I would have posted the pics sooner but I didn't have them handy.

[Puma44]

You're welcome.  The "Egg" is one of the basics of BFM and energy management.  Understanding how to use it is fundamental to successful maneuvering against an opponent.

[Mar]

And my flow diagram for Mar. I would have posted the pics sooner but I didn't have them handy.

<Quoted image manually removed>

AHA! Makes absolute sense now, thanks!