P-51D Gremlins Guide. Part 2

[Gremlin]

Here's the rest

Gremlin.

Ok so your not gonna get caught at a disadvantage are you?? If you use the type of tactic outlined above you will find yourself in a poor position far less often.

Primarily the pony is a boom n’zoom plane.  I feel many people have the wrong idea of boom n’zoom tactics.  I see many many planes who seem to think that boom n’ zoom means going for a head-on pass and running like hell when you miss!  Boom and zoom tactics are also called ‘Energy conservation’ tactics and I think that’s a far better description.  You are attempting to use superior energy to out fox your opponent.  As this may take some time, you must be certain to treat your energy like it is gold and you are Ebenezer Scrooge!  What this means is primarily fighting in the vertical rather than the t&b planes which like to get you in the horizontal. Your moves should be executed in such away that every one would at least see you no worse off than when you began.  My own preferred method of doing this involves diving on an enemy from directly above as I dive I will have ¼ throttle.  I have my elevator trim keys mapped to my joystick.  Remember the pony compresses real easy. The elevator trim is a compressed planes best friend, use it.  You will know when a compression is imminent as the pony shakes violently as the speed approaches compression.  This is due to the fact that you are approaching mach 1 and sonic energy is building within your plane.  Once you feel that shake chop the throttle and raise your trim flaps a tad, this will ensure that you don’t cross the line.  Don’t dive behind the guy and level out.  Try and plan it so that you level out just within firing range. <450m.  Usually the bandit will see you coming and apply a hard brake turn.  This is where the fun begins.  One of the ponies secrets is its awesome turning ability at speed.  So when the bad guy brakes, lead turn him, apply one or two notches of flaps as soon as you are able. Remember this is a one shot opportunity, if you miss, zoom away while raising the flaps, set it up and try again.  DO NOT persist in the turn, in a second or two the spit zero or niki will regain its turning advantage and you will be on the defensive.  Good T&B pilots use the following trick which you should be on the watch for and use if you are caught  by a plane with and altitude advantage.  What the defensive pilot does is dives gently to increase forward speed significantly.  Since planes can only go so fast no matter what height they are coming from the diving plane will soon reach max speed usually at about the same time the defensive plane is at max and usually at the same altitude.  Can you see what has happened now?  Any altitude advantage is now nullified the two planes are effectively or closer to being co-e.  A good spit pilot may well have also given himself an angle to zoom onto the previously offensive planes deep six and now the tables are turned.  Don’t let this happen to you.  The solution is simple if the lo bandit starts diving steeply you are well advised to approach with care.  If you do decide to make a pass, set yourself up so that you can zoom in the opposite direction to the bandit thus meaning he has to turn 180 to acquire you and bleed lots of e doing so.

You may be thinking that a pony is the worst turner in the arena, this is far from the truth.  Obviously your not going to be able to turn with a Spitfire, Zero, or N1K2, however against many other planes I quite often take the opportunity to outturn them.  The F6F is marginally better at turning than the P51 so it really comes down to the skill of your opponent.  Get a guy who knows his f6f and you will lose, but quite often you will easily outturn the hellcat.  The 109’s are also pretty marginal definitely don’t try to turn with a G2.  Turning against 109s really comes down to fuel states of both planes, basically if you are down at 25% or so give it a quick go.  It will be fairly obvious fairly quickly how it’s going.  If its not working, get out of there double time.  At this time you cannot afford to lose your situational awareness.  Keep a good eye out for any new threats and be prepared to sacrifice your kill in the interests of survival.

While turning a P51 use as many notches of flaps as necessary up to a max of three.  Start at one (just below 300mph indicated) and see how that goes,  if necessary give it a second (around 250) and in extreme circumstances a third (You don’t wanna be there too often).  It is crucial while fighting ‘close in’ to use the vertical as much as possible.  The pony is reasonably good in the vertical so use turning moves which have a vertical aspect, these include hi/lo yoyo’s, hammerheads and rolling scissors.  The latter requires some considerable practice to be anything other than a defensive move, so use it with care a poorly executed rolling scissors can very easily result in a spin, or completely mess up your angles.  I have just mentioned situational awareness and I will mention it again.  SA is paramount to survival in ANY plane and particularly the pony. Knowledge like speed is life. Learn to constantly scan your surroundings assessing the threat posed by various contacts, only worry about high priority targets, but always be on the lookout for any threat which may very quickly become high priority.  If you do nothing else, keep looking behind.  Duh!! You may say but haven’t you noticed how many times you kill guys who just ain’t looking.  It’s happened to all of us, you’re cruising along whistling a happy tune and suddenly bang your dead.  You really need to look behind every 5-10 seconds to be sure.   Get into that habit. Don’t give away easy kills.  Now putting all of this into a sort of flowchart you come up with something that I call ‘pony logic’

1   Climb out to Alt
2.   Find suitable engagement
3.   Decide if it is safe to engage.
4.   If it is safe then
5.   Make correct B n’Z pass
6.   Zoom back to safe altitude.
7.   Assess current threats
8.   goto 3
9.   If not safe then go back to step 2.
10.   Repeats steps 3-9 until either bandit is killed or situation dictates that you must disengage and move to a safe position.

The really important points here are
a)   ensure minimum energy loss.
b)   ALWAYS re-assess both your target and potential threats after each pass.

This document is purely intended as a guide to TACTICS in the P-51D.  There are many other aspects to flying the pony only time and experience will teach you these.

[Seeker]

Something about high speed flap use has always puzzled me....

People say drop the first notch of flaps around 250-280 (depending on who's talking) to improve the turn rate (dpm).....yet I can generate 6 G's fairly easily in a pony at that speed already. Seeing as I can't turn harder than 6g's any way (black out); what benefit is there in using flaps at this speed?

This isn't pony specific, the same question applies to the 38 and 47 too - why drop the flaps to increase turn rate when the plane's already capable of turning harder than you are?

I can imagine that the increased drag (coupled with a chopped throttle) can lead to a usefull E dump and improved turn radius, but I don't think that's what I'm being told here, is it?

BTW; thanks for the write up.

[Gremlin]

Seeker,

Very good question.  You gotta remember that as soon as you hit the first notch of flaps you will slow down a bit.  Thus enabling you to turn tighter for the same g's.  For me the only use for the first notch is to get you to the second and third:D, by which stage your a lot slower mebbe around 190 - 220ish and turning much tighter.

Gremlin.

[Dingy]

Good tips here Gremlin but I do have some comments.

B&Z attacks are fine but to take it to the next level of pilotship, I suggest E-fighting in the Mustang.  There are plenty of very good Stang pilots out there who dont just B&Z in the Mustang but actually mix it up in the Stang.

The Stang has a couple of very good qualities that make it a superb E-Fiter in the game:

- E retention.  

The Historical Stang had a very low drag coefficient thanks to its laminar flow airframe.  This seems to be very well modeled within AH.  

- High Performance Engine

Unlike the La7, the stang does just as well up high as it does down low.  Its also one of the faster planes in the arena and can get you out of trouble in a jiffy.  Finally, the powerful engine and sleek airframe gives it one of the best zooms in the game.  Makes it very easy to rope those planes like the spits you cant turn with.

- Excellent instantaneous turn rate

At speed, you can turn with spits, niks and Zekes.  Once you get your plane fast (250+), you can pull max G's for about 120 degrees of a turn which allows you to turn with the T&B planes.  You will be bleeding speed pretty quickly so you need to recognize when you can get the shot and when you cant so you can abort your attack and convert your speed back into alt to set up your next attack.

My only comments would be:

- If you are close to compressing, you are too fast.  If Im diving on a much lower enemy (and its safe to do so), I will throttle ALL THE WAY BACK, jam rudder and make a tight spiral so I dont get too fast.  My max attack speed is 350.  If Im faster than that, its wasted speed since I will  be too fast to counter any enemy reaction.

- Use E _Fighting tactics.  B&Z is just a very small subset of them.  Other ACM of choice include low and high yoyos, loops, zooms, lag pursuit, etc.  I wont go into all of that here since Andy Bush has already done so much of that already.

Against other planes:

Spits, Niks, Zekes: Bleed their E and hide your own.  Once you get them to follow you up, you wait until they start to flounder, pop a notch of flap and loop over the top and nail them as they try to point their nose back down.

La7: Above 15K planes are a pretty even match.  I have no suggestions as this is one plane that gives me fits.  What it comes down to is pilot and fuel.  Down low, the La7 is faster, turns better and climbs better.  Keep your speed up, DONT chop your throttle to force an overshoot but rather, use defensive barrell rolls to try and force the overshoot.

190D9:  This plane is also tough but you do have some advantages over it.  Although the Dora is faster than the Stang, you have better low speed handling and can win the slow knife fite.  If you can get the 190 to turn with you, you have just about won the battle.

109G10: Same as the Dora.  The 109 compresses VERY quickly and so you want to try to get him with speed.  Keep the fite fast.  Also, the turning ability of the 109 seems very marginal.  Just be careful not to lose too much speed cause the 109 can climb like a bat outa hell and will leave you floundering well below it if you give it a chance.

Also, I've never found a need to use more than one notch of flaps.  

-Ding

[Gremlin]

Dingy,  good stuff there too , hopefully some more of the P-51 fans will post and we can get a bit of a good thread going here.

Originally posted by Dingy
Good tips here Gremlin but I do have some comments.

B&Z attacks are fine but to take it to the next level of pilotship, I suggest E-fighting in the Mustang.  There are plenty of very good Stang pilots out there who dont just B&Z in the Mustang but actually mix it up in the Stang.

rgr than dingy good point.  Perhaps I should do a part three on non B&Z fiting,  perhaps I could run it by you before I post it.  Was intending this as a beginners guide, you will agree that the e-fighting is for the more experienced P-51 pilots.

Originally posted by Dingy


Also, I've never found a need to use more than one notch of flaps.  

-Ding

Ding I can often outurn stuff with 2 or 3 notches of flaps that I just can't with 1 notch.  We are talking stall speeds here.  I know I said in my document not to do stall speed fighting.  And until one is very comportable with the stangs behaviour at lo speed I stick by that, but as you rightly said the 51D is more than a b&Zer but I get best results with 2-3 notches of flaps and a bit of vator trim thrown in.

BTW I never use combat trim in anything other than a straight b&z.




Grem

[humble]

Great stuff gremlin, I'd add to Dingy's comments. The ponies greatest strength is as an E fighter. The majority of pony drivers extend to far horizontally and gain to much alt prior to reversing. The result is a series of seperate attacks instead of a single sustained onslaught.

Personally I feel the entire object of the initial attack is to reposition your plane over the target with reasonable but minimal seperation 1.2 or so being Ideal. Here you can attack in the vertical using your rollrate and good moderate speed handling to defeat any countermove. correctly done you'll get 2-3 slashing attacks from above before it's time to extend and regroup.

[Gremlin]

Hiya m8:)

Is it true that you are now operating in AH with the callsign 'Snaphook'?

Grem

[Spatula]

Good initial guide gremlin.

I have to make a few points in addition and some of my opinions.

1. Make sure when your diving in for the attack to use lag pursuit so you come in right behind him, this is for two reasons. first, if your dive is too steep he can can just nose up and hose ya (bad news if plane has cans). secondly, if you dive slightly lower and from behind you have the advantage of suprise (not that often) but also, your keeping him busy just tryin to track you. I also use 100% throttle on the dive in, to ensure a clean escape if it fails. If i suspect he's wise to me, i back off and sadle up. Compromising will get ya killed.

2. Flap usage. i hear people say they drop 2-3 notches etc etc. I hardly ever use em. Why? because if you do have to use em your tryin to turn with a superior slow-speed turning plane, and that is the antithesis of the pony doctrine.  Also, keeping them in keeps your airframe nice and clean - this is real important. The only time you need to turn is to pull lead to shoot, and i find the instantaneous turn rate of the pony to be sufficient as is - plus a proper setup and good anticipation eliminates the need to turn hard. I do use them from time to time, but only as a last option.

3. Good SA, beats a good pilot everytime. This aint a pony specific trick, just common sense. Learn to track upwards of 6 cons and know where they are in relation to you at any point. This aint easy. Learn to use and read your map to plan you tactics, your flight path, your targets, most importantly know where your fellow country men are, and last but not least a viable escape route.

4. from a position of disadvantage, the pony is full of suprises.  I find barell rolls very effective in the pony. sissors less effective, and break turns near suicidal. My fav is the tightening (slightly downwards) turn and reverse, overshoot trick - works a treat. This is where you turn gently to start with to trick the con into lead pursuit to take the shot, the gradually tighten the turn at just before the point you expect them to fire, they normally follow. From here while they're blacked out reverse sharp and saddle up Once they overshoot, they will zoom, depending on your speed follow them but keep your nose under them and anticipate their reversal (looks like a big 'n' in front of you) , position you piper at the end of the n to cut em off and shoot

5. The La7 mennace. This one is easy. Have a wingman fail that, stay over 12K, here the pony has the speed advantage. NEVER dive below12K to engage an la7 if your by yourself (if near E states).

6. The Dora menace. The B pony gives these guys grief if you out turn em. Soon they'll be using their speed advantage to run The D pony with 4 gun option is a lethal and underated package - better IMO than the B. Try your best not to use your WEP when engaging a dora. i know this sounds counter-intuitive, but without WEP (ie both planes off WEP) the pony (D model) is faster than the dora on the deck - albeit by 2 mph. But the dora has alot longer wep runtime. use yours to run away on the deck if it comes to that.

7. Fuel loads. more than 50% and you've got a barge on your hands. I take 50% and 2 DTs. climb out on your DTS, cruise on your DTs, and drop em when you engage, or are expecting too. This way you've got the range when you need it and the lightness when you need that too. I normally drop 1 DT on take off if i dont expect to be escorting buffs or something.

8. I know this has been mentioned, but: speed speed speed and more speed. the faster the better.

[Gremlin]

Originally posted by Spatula
Good initial guide gremlin.

Thank you Spatula, and for taking the time to give us all the benefit of your experience in the pony.

Just some of my comments on your comments:)

Originally posted by Spatula
1. Make sure when your diving in for the attack to use lag pursuit so you come in right behind him, this is for two reasons. first, if your dive is too steep he can can just nose up and hose ya (bad news if plane has cans). secondly, if you dive slightly lower and from behind you have the advantage of suprise

Very good point.  Funnily somehow I often get away with the lo 6 approach.  They never seem to see me.  Just lucky I guess.

Originally posted by Spatula
2. Flap usage. i hear people say they drop 2-3 notches etc etc. I hardly ever use em. Why? because if you do have to use em your tryin to turn with a superior slow-speed turning plane, and that is the antithesis of the pony doctrine.  

I would never turn with a superior turner (Spitfire, N1K-J2, A6MB, LA5/7, 109G2) however I have had much success turning with other 109s, 190's tiffies etc.  I really find the flaps essential for this plus a bit of elevator trim thrown in for good measure.  When I do this I try to be real careful of my SA.  Agreed, when your turning your vunerable, however if the situation allows it, i.e. 1v 1 or a numbers advantage for your side in your immediate area its a real killer.  One thing that gets me quite a lot of kills is the gangbangers.  Its a strange thing but you can spend 10 minutes trying to wear down a superior E plane which is a poor turner such as a 190 etc, but when another con dives in the 190 now thinks he can turn with ya??  I can never figure outwhy, guess the 190 wants to nail a kill before the other guy does, but on many occasions it results in both getting sent home dead:)  BTW pony drivers take note, just because a gangbang is in process doesnt mean you can turn with spits:)

Originally posted by Spatula
3. Good SA, beats a good pilot everytime. This aint a pony specific trick, just common sense. Learn to track upwards of 6 cons and know where they are in relation to you at any point. This aint easy. Learn to use and read your map to plan you tactics, your flight path, your targets, most importantly know where your fellow country men are, and last but not least a viable escape route.

Spot on there bro. Pony newbies read that again, and again until you know it off by heart:)

Originally posted by Spatula
4. from a position of disadvantage, the pony is full of suprises.  I find barell rolls very effective in the pony. sissors less effective, and break turns near suicidal. My fav is the tightening (slightly downwards) turn and reverse, overshoot trick - works a treat.

That kinda comment is exactly the type of thing I was hoping this thread would produce, good pony jocks sharing tricks, nice one Spatula:)

Originally posted by Spatula
6. The Dora menace. The B pony gives these guys grief if you out turn em. Soon they'll be using their speed advantage to run The D pony with 4 gun option is a lethal and underated package - better IMO than the B. Try your best not to use your WEP when engaging a dora. i know this sounds counter-intuitive, but without WEP (ie both planes off WEP) the pony (D model) is faster than the dora on the deck - albeit by 2 mph. But the dora has alot longer wep runtime. use yours to run away on the deck if it comes to that.

Funny I never seen to find doras too much trouble, but good points

Originally posted by Spatula
7. Fuel loads. more than 50% and you've got a barge on your hands. I take 50% and 2 DTs.

Me too.

Thx for a well thought out response.


__________________
Flt.Lt.Gremlin
Firebirds, 56 "Fighter" Sqn RAF.
Second Tactical Air Force

"Quid si coelum ruat - 'What if heaven falls?'"

[Gremlin]

Here's the link to part one before it falls of the end of the forum:)

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46354

Grem

[Red Tail 444]

Thanks for the info..I normally up with 75% and two tanks....I'll make the adjustment.

Although you don't really turn fight often with the pony, is there a marked difference in turning between the b and D? And is the C the middle child that gets no recognition?

[Spatula]

Originally posted by Red Tail 444

Although you don't really turn fight often with the pony, is there a marked difference in turning between the b and D? And is the C the middle child that gets no recognition?

Firstly the B and the C models are identical in specification, except they were assembled in different factories. So the B is the C. Otherwise known by the brits as Mustang MkIII.

Turning difference between them is something people seem to disagree on. But heres my 2 cents: The B is slightly lighter than the D in standard trim. Most of that weight can be accounted for by the extra 2 50cal MGs and ammo in the D. Sustained turn performance has everything to do with wingloading. Lighter the load on the wings vs their lift co-efficient, the better it turns. Since both the B and D have the same wing, then it comes down to weight. So in standard trim, the B does have a slightly better sustained turn performance. Instantaneous turn rate is diferent again (and i havent noticed a difference here). But, a D model can be fitted with 4 50s and it will turn all but the same as the B model.

IMO, i like to have the extra vision, and the extra 2 50s, to help end fights quicker. Seen as so i hardly ever get into a sustained turn in a p51, the sustained turn rates are almost irrelevant.

[Spatula]

Gremlin, the one-notch of flap thing: im not saying dont use it. Im just saying be carefull when you do. It can be helpfull to sheer outturn that 109 or whatever after a fast merge. You can drop the damn things at 390 MPH! and it does make a difference in turning. But i normally avoid hard turns of this nature because of the pony's poor acceleration - why scrub that hard earned speed off, unless your 100% sure your opponent is scrubbin his off?