Author Topic: Carrier ops  (Read 214 times)

Offline Widewing

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Carrier ops
« on: April 23, 2002, 03:30:21 PM »
Why does it appear that carriers (CV) have a life-span that can usually be measured in minutes once engaged? There are several reasons. Here's the most common.

1) Carrier is unsupported: During WWII, carriers would typically have up to 40 fighters aboard. These fighters would perform the role of CAP and BARCAP, as well as escort the dive and torpedo bombers, or perform fighter-bomber ops. We simply do not see that in the MA. Basically, our carriers depend upon maneuvering and gunfire to avoid being bombed. This is not sufficient. Generally, there exists no CAP or BARCAP whatsoever. BARCAPs would be positioned along expected routes used by the enemy to approach the fleet. Their job is to intercept and inflict loss upon any aircraft flying in the direction of the fleet. BACAPs should be established at a minimum of 10 flying minutes from the fleet pickets. CAPs should operate in the immediate area of the fleet, where they can intercept any "leakers" that may sneak through the BARCAP. Both types of air patrols are defensive in mission and will not participate in attacking enemy bases. BARCAPs are usually assigned to the altitude where the major threat can be expected. In our case, about 25,000 ft. CAPs should be divided, with half at high altitude, and half at medium altitude (10-15k). Keeping a few down at 5k is a good idea if you have the manpower.

Pickets. Normally, this is done by destroyers, placed at a distance from the fleet to detect incoming aircraft. In the MA, this role should be filled by PTs. However, if the radar is up, they have less priority. But, should the HQ be hit, and the radar go down, pickets should be deployed immediately, with the fleet retiring away from potential threats. This also allows for rapid separation between pickets and the fleet, essential to providing time for threat response.

As it stands, carriers rarely, if ever, have even the basic CAP coverage, much less anything remotely close to what is described above. Often, little more than a dozen aircraft are operating from the carrier, and most are involved in attacking enemy fields or fleets. The net result is that carriers are basically fending for themselves, aided only by AI acks and a handful of people who may man the guns. This is important: Tasks Force commanders should not do anything else, but operate the fleet. This provides the fastest response to incoming attackers, allowing time to maneuver. Taking command remotely should only happen in the absence of an onboard commander.

There is a general failure to recognize the tactical limitations of the carrier, and consider the effectiveness of the "laser guided" bombing of heavy bombers. It matters not that there was no single recorded occurrence of a heavy bomber ever even hitting a maneuvering carrier (much less sinking one) in WWII. The fact is that the heavy bomber is the principle enemy of ships in AH.

I can't count how many times people have taken carriers into no-win situations, without considering what happens when the ship sinks (as it always does when misused). No matter how much people try to reason with these guys, they assume they know better. Without fail, they discover otherwise. Apparently, the fact that it will take up to two hours to get a new fleet in place never enters their minds. Carriers should be treated as mobile airfields. Mobile, but much less damage resistant. Don't waste resources.

Please, fellow players, when someone questions fleet placement and deployment, drop any attitude and consider that there are probably sound reasons to raise such questions. Reasons that you may have never considered. If you must err, do so on the side of caution. Whenever I move or reposition a fleet, I always state why in the message buffer. This allows for discussion before the fleet is committed.

Remember, the fleet belongs to the country. Unlike your personal aircraft, fleet use or misuse can effect the entire effort being put forth by your countrymates.

If squads would consider providing CAP and BARCAP as part of a push, carriers would become far less vulnerable, and far more valuable to MA operations.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline AKcurly

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Re: Carrier ops
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2002, 03:37:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

1) Carrier is unsupported: During WWII, carriers would typically have up to 40 fighters aboard. These fighters would

Sometimes they do a fair job of protecting CVs.  It's been my experience that CVs are frequently unapproachable at 8k.   If  you are at 10k and above, hitting a maneuvering carrier with bombs can be tough.

curly

Offline AKDejaVu

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Carrier ops
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2002, 03:43:34 PM »
I have a tendancy to say that the main reason carriers survived much longer IRL is because they were seldomely parked 5 miles off an enemy base.

Hell.. they were probably not much less than 100 miles from enemy land at any given time... until air supression was much more advanced.

But what fun would having a CV 4 sectors from a fight be?

CVs have survived a long time too many times in the MA to think there is a major problem here.

The truth is.. if the enemy has unlimited resources available to destroy an object.. they can destroy it.

AKDejaVu

Offline john9001

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Carrier ops
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2002, 03:48:56 PM »
everything widewing said is true.

that defense is easy to organize in a scenario, have done it many times, but in the wild wild west of the MA?, i donno, can only hope

44MAG

Offline Sabre

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Carrier ops
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2002, 04:23:53 PM »
I'd like to see an automatic zig-zag feature added.  By this I mean the fleet would automatically start a rapid zig-zagging along the plotted base course whenever an enemy approached to withing some set (or configurable) distance, and above a certain altitude.  The sole purpose would be to prevent a lone bomber from level-bombing it with impunity.  Dive bombing would also be more difficult, but would at the same time be your best chance to hit the ship.

The counter to this? Circle above the enemy carrier, thus making carrier ops much harder.  Of course, you'd be in the flak envelope the whole time, so it would be dangerous to keep circling indefinitely.
Sabre
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Offline Dago

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Carrier ops
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2002, 05:17:27 PM »
I know, lets make the CV unusable. so that way nobody would ever bother sinking it!

One of the biggest problems with the CVs is guys who are so afraid of having them sunk, they move them way away from any battle.  So, to protect them, they make them useless.

Whats the point in having a CV if you are so afraid of it being sunk that it isnt in the game?

I do understand and support keeping them far enough away from shore that the SB's can't hit them, but for God's sake, keep them relevant.

If someone lacks the guts to fight the CV, please don't command it.  Not pointing at anyone with that statement, just hoping people will heed this plea.

Dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline ccvi

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Re: Carrier ops
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2002, 06:54:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
BACAPs should be established at a minimum of 10 flying minutes from the fleet pickets.


10 flying minutes for attacking bombers? at 180 knots that's 30 miles.

how's that possible without flying over enemy fields and way out of the range of own radar to pick up incoming nme?

both field distances and radar ranges are way to short.

Offline Samm

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Carrier ops
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2002, 08:04:40 PM »
The problem is players missuse carrier groups for shore bombardment .

 If we had battleships seperate of the carrier groups would players be less apt at putting their floating airfields in harms way ?

Offline CavemanJ

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Carrier ops
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2002, 09:15:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Samm
The problem is players missuse carrier groups for shore bombardment .

 If we had battleships seperate of the carrier groups would players be less apt at putting their floating airfields in harms way ?


Actually they don't use the groups properly for shore bombardment.

The 8" guns on the cruisers have a range of 32k.  The 5" guns can kick shells to 17.2-17.4k  There is absolutely no reason to sail a group as close as possible before opening up with the guns.

When I'm manning the guns and my squad is attacking a target I have one of the guys be my forward observer and walk my fire into whatever needs to be hit.  They're getting real good at it too :D

Standing out to sea not only protects the carrier, but gives the carrier based birds a chance to grab a little before diving into the field.

Course we need BB fleets for shore bombardment, and then the carriers can cruise around with only DEs as mobile airfields.

I'd love to see the Bismark added :D

Offline Tac

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Carrier ops
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2002, 09:20:48 PM »
True samm. Thats a great point. We do need a separate Carrier and Battleship/Cruiser fleets.

Maybe:

CV TF: 2 carriers, 8 DD's

BB/CA TF: 3 CA's 1 BB, 4 DD's.

Carriers are literally "beached" in AH because they can provide a flak umbrella, cruiser bombardment and of course, CleoAck (tm) to run to if you lose the advantage and know for a fact that to run to AI =save your butt.

Carriers in AH aren't capped because players dont want to. Its that simple. Take a look at what that hellcat squadron did in the CT (and once in the MA that ive witnessed)... used their CV perfectly... launched strikes and kept a CAP at all times. It was very hard to kill their CV. And this was BEFORE the CV's were toughened up.

Offline Samm

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Carrier ops
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2002, 11:03:36 PM »
Yes we are in agreement, but here is what would really happen if they gave us seperate Battlegroups explicitly for naval gunnery.

The Battleship group would be parked up the maw of the enemy's coastal guns at one base, and the carrier group would be parked up the maw of the enemy's coastal guns at another or perhaps even at the same base . If only HTC could award rank via some aptitude test .

None the less I say give us Battleships that can be operated independantly of the carriers .

Offline Virage

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Carrier ops
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2002, 03:48:15 AM »
Longer down times may make teams value the CV more than they do now.  

The higher ranking players of each country are the only ones who can really do anything about the CV problem.  Until their habits change, the CV issue will remain the same.
JG11

Vater

Offline Sandman

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Carrier ops
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2002, 09:22:45 AM »
One other reason for bringing the CV group closer... LVT.

If the ship had a carrier based troop transport aircraft, there would be little reason to get close.
sand

Offline SKurj

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Carrier ops
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2002, 10:08:26 AM »
cc Sandman

I've wondered if CV's in ww2 carried any transport AC, for supplies, troops etc


SKurj