Author Topic: Attacking B-17s  (Read 1285 times)

Offline Fancy

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2003, 12:34:08 PM »
I actually like to stay in the rear-gunner's sight's on approach, but off to the side, like 8 or 4 o'clock and at a distance, say 1k.  Being slightly below or above helps too.  Angled shots from the tail are extremely tough especially at 1k and it gives you time to react if he starts ranging you well.  What I do is stay nice and steady (I like to make him wonder when I'm going to move--psychological I guess, plus I'm gaining speed which I'll need to be less hitable when I slash into guns range) then when I get close to his 9 or 3, bank and slash across his wings until I'm about 1k on the other side.  Rinse and repeat.

I use the bottom up method quite a bit too, waiting until I get to exactly below him to zoom up firing a salvo just in front of his nose.  Essentially I'm waiting to get the belly gunner pointed down to the point where he has to traverse around to follow me as I zoom up in front.  Also, pointed straight down the belly gun doesn't have a good view of the horizon, so it's easy to lose bearing.

Above all, though, I'd fly B17s myself both watching the successful passes of others and the weaknesses of B17 gunnery.

Offline Kanth

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2003, 03:38:17 PM »
don't forget the yak9T

one shot one kill, sometimes two shots 1 kill, but it usually only takes 1 shot.

it's fast enough to kill a bomber group, you don't have to spend much time spraying.

You have the potential for 32 buff kills or 16 if it's taking you two bullets per buff.
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Offline bockko

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2003, 05:45:12 PM »
there are some very critical don'ts:

-don't make your pass slow
-don't approach from rear
-don't make your approach straight, in the field of fire of one gun
-don't attack me if i am in a buff, please
-don't stay straight after your firing run

-do take the time to get good angle before you attack
-do aim carefully, especially with mg's -- if you can keep hitting one spot for a prolonged period you get much better results.

Offline JB73

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2003, 06:16:40 PM »
all it takes is time ....

above somone mentioned the 11oclock blind spot.

also the sun can really be your ally.

also watch for somone else to in (if there are others around) or use a squaddie as "bait" have the squaddie stay about 1.8+ low 6 wobbling back and forth.

oh well my 2¢
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Offline Soda

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2003, 06:30:08 PM »
The quality of the bomber gunner really has a lot to do with it too, and timing.  If you can get him while he's in the bombsight and he doesn't have a gunner, well, he's easy bait then.  Some guys, you'll find, are deadly in the guns from almost any angle though so any approach is dangerous.  I think the common thread though is, set up properly, bring something with guns adequate to get the job done, then get in,take your shot, and get out of harms way.  If you need a second pass (count on it), then set it up and make it.  Don't rush just to get close.

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Offline Fancy

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2003, 12:34:20 AM »
To augment something Soda said, I think it's critical to understand when it's best not to bother with a buff formation.  The three most lethal bombers--B17, Ki67, B26.  The rest can be toyed with really, but if you don't have the guns don't even bother.  This is especially true of buffs that have already made their drop.  If you have the guns and a good solid plane, then by all means discourage that fool from ever bombing your team again.  But if there are enemies about and your plane is a bit fragile and undergunned for big target, pack it in and look for another fight.  After all, the longer that guy takes rtb'ing the longer an enemy team is essentially down a player.

Offline Blank

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2003, 07:09:58 AM »
line up dead six at 1.4 ish , (the range of the LW a2a rockets) fire your rockets blow up b-17's fly home with not a scratch.



I wish ....  :D


as said above, slashing attach from  10 to 2 o'clock and try to not fly straight at the guns, so that he always has to lead you.

from 10-2 you hit lead buff and right buff, from 2- 10 hit lead and left buff.

or HO the formation and fire a2g rockets.

I been shot down out to d1.5 so i normallt hang around 1.8- 2.5 ish from formation

:)

Offline J_A_B

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2003, 02:31:02 AM »
Tactics are pretty well discussed above.  Also, off-angle headons can work pretty well, and are useful in situations where settp diving attacks can't be used (like if the BUFF is very low).

Here's my rundown on the better bomber-killers of AH.  

NOTE:  For all fighters when doing a dedicated anti-bomber sortie, I recommend a convergence of at least 575 as the sooner you can open fire and score meaningful hits, the better.  Also, I like the tougher fighters as they can better withstand the occasional hit from the bomber gunners.

Me-163

Although I don't normally discuss expensive perk planes when recommending a plane to somebody, this one is a special case.  If you detect an incomming HQ raid and have little time, this is the plane you need as it will reach 30K in only a couple minutes.  Only use it in emergencies though due to the large PP risk.


Bf-109G-10 (30mm + gondolas)

This is THE plane to pick if the bombers are high, and you're not.  Long WEP duration, fast climbrate and adequate firepower make this perhaps the best pure interceptor in AH for dealing with high bombers.  This plane is difficult to fly though because of controllability issues at high speed so I wouldn't use it unless it was the only plane capable of doing the job (in other words, if you have time to climb pick a different plane unless you happen to like 109's).  Fly with one hand on the elevator trim--you'll need it.  Not very durable so be extra careful.

FW-190A-8 (4 x 20mm recommended)

This is a decent low to medium altitude bomber killer combining good firepower, ammo load and durability into one package.   The high rollrate will also help when doing evasive maneuvers.  I choose the 20mm over the 30mm because the ballistics match better, plus the 30mm have a serious performance penalty.  4 x 20mm is enough to kill even B-17's with in short order--aim for their wings.

Typhoon

Good for low to medium altitudes.  Great firepower with 4 Hispanos, and good speed too.  This is a good choice if you have to attack bombers while avoiding escorts, as the speed will help you stay alive.  Tendency to suffer radiator damage means you should pick a different plane if you don't expect enemy fighters to be a problem.

F4U-1C

If you're willing to spend the perks, this plane packs the punch of the Typhoon into a tougher airframe with almost twice the ammo load.  This is the best bomber killer available from a carrier (surely that CV is worth the 10 or so perks!).   Use that ammo load to "reach out and touch" them, out to 1K or so.

P-47D

Often under-rated since it lacks cannon, the P-47 is still a goodt bomber killer.  8 .50's can get the job done, and the huge ammo load and good accuracy of the .50's lets you open up from greater range (even out to 1K against B-17's).  This plane is pretty tough and will survive a few pings--but don't get cocky!  The P-47 can be highly effective at ANY altitude, even at 30K plus, something which few other bomber-killing fighters can do.

Yak-9T

The one-hit-wonder, if you can hit something with that 37MM you will kill it.  OTOH this plane acts like it's made out of tinsel and blows up if you look at it wrong so "one hit wonder" applies both ways :)   Definately a low-altitude plane.  If you have the altitude, this is the PERFECT plane for the vertical-dive attack.

Bf-110G

Though not often thought of as a buff-killer, the 110G has great firepower (2 20mm and 2 30m) packed into the nose, with a pretty good ammo load to boot!  Slow climbrate means this one is best for use at lower altitudes.

Mosquito

If you can avoid getting hit, the Mossie will shred anything quite well.  4 hispanos, with good ammo load, all packed into the nose pack a heck of a punch.   This plane is a pretty large target itself though so it's best to work with a wingman who distracts the gunner while you move in for the kill.  Like the 110, poor climbrate limits its usefulness to lower altitudes.

N1K2

Good firepower, good ammo load, good climbing and diving ability, decent durability, and great maneuverability make this plane a natural bomber hunter although it's seldom used as such.  Thanks to the ammo load, your effective range against bombers is about 900 yards (1.1k or so on a headon) so getting kills is easier.  In addition, the N1K can furball all day long so it's the natural choice if you want to be able to kill bombers AND dogfight.  It's a bit slow though so don't try to chase down bombers with it--only attack if you can get into position beforehand.  Performance drops off above 18K.

Of course, any fighter (and some light bombers) can be used to intercept Buffs, but not all are equally good at the task.  The above planes are what I feel are the best readily-available interceptors currently available in AH.

J_A_B

Offline Boozer

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2003, 07:13:29 AM »
Couple of points from gunners point of view....


   Jumping guns while I'm tracking a target keeps me pointed at my target so I can follow you pretty easily jumping from nose to tail etc (someone above mentioned forcing a jump and maybe the guns will be pointed wrong, this is false, I HAVE YOU ACQUIRED)... therefore....

   Don't pull up to make the attack pass, I'll jump from ball to top as you pass and still have you tracked and kill you climbing slow above me..

  Don't fly straigh in EVEN if you're not being fired on, I'll wait as long as you let me before firing, I'll skip the calibrate/drop and watch you if I sense you're trying to catch me not looking, and kill you with fewer bullets at d500

  Get clear of gun range before making any turn back to me, I CAN track you from gun to gun without losing sight.. several try to roll about my axis close in but give me easy d200-300 shots without even having  guns on me, I'll kill you

  Dont bother trying to climb up my belly, It's the easiest lead shot there is, I can hit you in ball from 1.4 below all the way up, I'll kill you
 
  Stay 1.5+ away while you're trying to get position, I can hit you at 1.4

  Tag teams ARE best just dont both attack from the same angle, then I'll kill you both

  If you smoked my lead plane(engine) I wont drop since it'll be a miss anyway, all my attention is on killing you now, you might want to consider your job done at this point and go home alive

  If you've knocked down 2 of my buffs and are pinged up, call it a victory and go home.. I can kill you more accurately with just 1 17 (especially if you're already hurt) because there's no longer any fire delay (like with 3 buffs) waiting for my drones to fire as well.

  Getting a death count for losing drones sucks, I used to maintain a 2:1 k/d in 17s, now I'm struggling to get 1:1 k/d :)

*hic*

Offline cpxxx

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2003, 04:05:15 PM »
I found all about attacking B17's quite early in this game. Even today I broke my unwritten rule about attacking them alone and paid for it. Shot down while struggling for altitude at what I thought was a safe distance. To rub salt in the wounds the cocky gunner bade me a sarcastic goodbye as I spiralled to earth with a flaming tail! I know where you live, I'll be back! :mad:

What's interesting about all this discussion is that we are all making the same mistakes and learning the same lessons the real Luftwaffe did in WW2. Head on and curving slashing attacks are the way to go giving the gunner little chance to line up. It occurs to me that an all  guns manned formation would be a formidable foe. How about that as an idea for a mission. Shooting down every fighter that dared to come up and fight.

The Luftwaffe resorted to using a heavily armoured FW190 which could close in and blow the B17's straight out of the sky. The only problem was that they were so heavy that they had to be escorted by conventional FW's. A bit impractical in this context I think.
Anyway from now on I just watch B17's fly by and admire their lines and count the number optimists who crash and burn attempting to kill them, unless I get a lucky head-on pass.

Offline JB73

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2003, 06:21:21 PM »
just practice ....

this tour:
Innomi Stats
37 kills of and 4 deaths by B17 99% in an Fw 190-d9

tour 35:
jb73 has 41 kills and has been killed 7 times against the B-17G

tour 34:
jb73 has 28 kills and has been killed 3 times against the B-17G.

tour 33:
jb73 has 45 kills and has been killed 5 times against the B-17G.

allmost all in the Fw 190d-9
(i actually surprised myself with this search.. i had to go back to my first full month of stats; tour 26 to find a negative K/D against B17's)

most of the advise above is good, but the more i think about it nobody mentioned the "skid" with rudders to slide across the back of the B17's. you come in @ around 8oclock from 3k alt advantage, then as you are about d700 use rudder to keep the nose of the plane on target while letting your line go directly behind high to low very fast.  its hard to describe but if you see it it would make sence.

oh well my 2¢ (again)
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Offline mia389

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2003, 12:38:16 AM »
I like using the jug for 17s. I come in like 1000 ft below the bombers aiming for the ball turret then the tail gun on first pass usally comin in fast, if all went right I can sit on his 6 with only out side planes side guns shooting at me. Go for the outside planes then center or he will get his guns back if kill center plane first. I use the jug cause it can take a beating and 8 50 cals aiming at the ball turret and tail gun usally takes them out.


    Ive had fighters come in on my B17s that come from high 2oclock almost strait down at me and I had a helll of time getting shots on them but that goes for them getting shots on me too.

Offline akak

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2003, 11:45:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mia389
I like using the jug for 17s.


Since I fly the P-38L 99.99% of the time, this plane is my obvious choice for bomber interceptions and IMO is great in that role.  It was designed as a high speed interceptor and it's one role it does very well, a lot better than most might expect.  With it's 20mm and 4x .50 cals, it can make very short work of a bombers wing, even with just the 4x .50 cals, you can still take a B-17's wing off in one pass.  It also tough enough to take some hits if you the gunner has a bead on you.

After the P-38L, the Me262 is my second choice for a bomber killer.  I don't like the Me163 with it's low seating and crappy visibilty.  Reminds me of a low rider.



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Offline BNM

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Attacking B-17s
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2003, 10:50:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
Fourth, guns.  Don't even attempt to kill a buff with .50's unless you have a lot of patience.  It can be done, but is mostly just a waste of ammo.


Agree with most of what you said and normally say but this is totally wrong. I fly the jug mostly and I can tell you my 8 50s can eat a wing in 1/2 with a 2-3 second burst in one easy pass. :D