Need help with a this move...

[Naudet]

...which i often saw done by others but that never works with me.

I describe it now:

I fly behind an enemy (most often spit,yak,tiffie or P51) at distance around 900-1.2K and i have speed advantage.
The tgt performs a left/right turn, i than pull up cause my D9 is never able to follow that due to speed adv and turning cirle. I climb about 3K while rolling my lift on him, while he still does his turn. When he pulls out of the turn, i roll onto him again. Usually distance is now somewhat between 1.2-1.5K i dive down, but he simply pulls up and faces me HO. I now evade cause i wont go for a HO.

Now i tried to copy this move with my D9, the following things normally happen.
I pull a turn at max of 3G, to prevent E loss, when tgt is at 1K and closing fast, normally he simply pulls into my turn, so that i have to break the rest of.

If he pulls up and rolls onto me, i try to pull up and face him. This ends normally in stall (even if only pulling up with 2-3G), a death, cause he guns we while i am still in the pull up (no matter that the distance at the beginning of my pull up was 1.5k+. Or he goes into the HO and i lose, cause at the now low speed i cant get a gunsolution in time.

Now my question, is it the plane or the pilot?
after getting into hard stalls troubles by performing it. I assumed that the other guys had this too, but wrong they always have plenty of speed and time to get a got HO from this position, even if let them 1st climb up for 3-4 secs to me before closing to under 800yrds.

[humble]

I think the answer to your question is both...some planes seem better able to rev into a higher defender...and handle better thru the changes in handling. also some pilots seem to sense the how/when better than others. Personally I fall for this alot..especially from tiffies and spits.

From what you describe I can give you a couple of ideas...most important one is decrease your lateral seperation...you dont want to extend to more than 2.0...stay more over your con...if you go out and come back you give bogie an easier rev...also your not as high...if you match hi yoyo's to low yoyo's you can make it much tougher to rev.

Also, if you do go out...as you come back if the con pulls back up into you zoom up to just above stall...and pop flaps...fly a flat or slightly climbing tight turn at just over full stall...its almost impossible for a bogie to hang the prop and follow that turn...the hardest part fighting a good neg E T&Ber is timing your rev back into him...if you wait till he's actually stalled he may very well meet you coming back up...so you need to time your dive back in so its just before he stalls...I'll try for a zero throttle full flap spiral dive that keeps him hanging for a shot...and pop flaps in as he "wobbles"

[humble]

whoops...went postal...er post happy

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: humble ]

[humble]

a threepeat..sorry

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: humble ]

[Starbird]

If someone is coming up fast on your 6, it seems the bigest mistake that I've seen (and usually do) is to break/climb too early to avoid the attacker.

If your goig to break, you need to do it just before the attacker starts firing (usually 600-300yds, depending on plane/pilot). Then when you do break, dont pull a lot of g's, and generally start climbing or reverse and chase the attacker (if he dives, say).

This has been working well with me so far.

[SpitLead]

Starbird is right on.  Don't get too anxious to break too early.  Let them commit.  If they have that much speed they can't stay with you when you break and you'll spoil their gun solution.  Net lag is an issue though cause they may be closer than what you see on your end. I'd try and hold off until d500-d600 if possible (Starbird, due to net lag I think anything under d400 is just too close, IMHO)

Starbird is also right in that you don't want to make a real High 'g' turn (hard break) because you'll bleed 'e'.  To turn the attack around you can break left or right and wait until they pass by you and then pull back onto their six.  You may get a snapshot. If you're lucky, they may have tried a hard break to get the shot in which case they lost some 'e'.  At the very least they're now in front of YOU.    

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]

[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]

[MANDOBLE]

Naudet, you can do it right with spit, yak and tiffie (not sure the P51, but add the nikki and the zeke for sure), but not with a Dora or any other 190 variant. These first three planes simply keep hung in the air pointing at you for an ethernity and with full control to correct the aiming at you, specially the tiffie and the yak. The fact is that in that zoom they climb slower than your D9, but they keep in a vertical controled flight for more time than you. At some point in your zoom (D9), you'll need to employ 2-3 secs to reverse and the enemy will gain easily 300-500 yards on you, so, you'll be well into the hispano dead zone of less than 1000 yards. As an option to increase the distance between you and the con, you can roll a bit in the opposite direction of the enemy's turn and start a non pure vertical zoom climb in that direction. If the enemy follows you there will be about 500 or more yards added to the path.

As a general rule for almost any plane vs 190 in the vertical plane:

1 - D9 will loose in the initial stages of a dive, but will win the race if dive is substained for several seconds.

2 - D9 will win the race only in the initial stages of a zoom climb, but will loose if the climb is substained for several seconds.

Just the opposite effects in the case of a Spit, for example.

If you are the turning/zooming plane with your D9, you'll start gaining over the climbing enemy, but you will loose control early and due terrible ballistics of the 151/20 you'll have no chance to score deadly hits on him. Then you will have a hard time reversing and trying to flee while the enemy will perform that operation softly and easily and will gain on you in the first seconds of the dive, so, your D9 will probably be shot down.

A better tactic for a faster D9 against a turning opponet would be to start a gentle wide open climbing turn trying to make the enemy to follow you. After two or three wide circles, you'll be problably just above the con and both near stall speed, at this point you can push hard the rudder and try to wing over over him while his guns have no chance to point at you.

[Robert]

why can't there be more threads like this ?

 

RWY