How hardened is an HQ?

[ChopSaw]

Setting the delay to different times does effect the dispersal in that it lengthens the string.  In other words they are strung out in a line more or less depending on whether the delay is lengthened or shortened.  The minimum delay is .05 seconds.  Personally I don’t use the delay.  I keep it on .05 and use single salvos triggered manually.

The dispersion Skuzzy was referring to is the wandering tendency of the bomb after being dropped.  In AH1 you got craters which perfectly mirrored the spacing of your bombers when the drop occurred.  This gave you a fairly tight grouping unless you’d just changed course prior or during the drop.  In AH2 each bomb apparently has a randomized dispersal.  Sometimes this results in a very tight group and sometimes you get a wide spread.  This means if you use 1K bombs and try a single salvo, you’re not going to bring a hanger down because not all your bombs are close enough to do the necessary damage.  That means you have to drop two salvos of 1K bombs to get each hanger down.  That’s why I use the 2K bombs to bring hangers down.  It’s a 100% reliable way to do it and in the B-24 you’re carrying enough for four hangers.  The same amount of ordnance you’d carry if you were trying to do it with 1K bombs, just in a more concentrated and therefore more accurate package.

Obviously these hangers aren’t as soft a target as what they were in WWII.  It takes 3K damage delivered on target to get them down.  A WWII wood frame and sheet metal job would go down with the lightest of bombs.  On the other hand you could have destroyed all the hangers on a WWII field and the field would still have put aircraft in the sky.  Not all the aircraft were parked in hangers.  It’s a trade off that makes the game work.

I’m pretty sure you’re correct on the damage modeling.  From what I’ve seen it is 2d rather than 3d.

I’m pretty sure that your drop of 6 x 500 lb bombs = total of 9,000 lbs. couldn’t have all hit the ship.  Some of them had to have missed.  I’m not saying this because of your failure to destroy the ship.  I’m saying it because I can’t imagine a vector you could have taken that would get all the bombs onto the ship.  Some of them would have had to drop to either side of the cv.  See my above posting regarding my drop of 2 salvos of 2K bombs in one pass.  Only the bombs from the lead bomber hit.  The bombs from my drones hit the water on both sides of the cv.  I was too well lined up on the cv and flying in the same direction as the cv was sailing.  When I’m bombing a cv from a direction crosswise to the direction they’re going in, I get them every time with that payload.  Well……unless the guy turns the dang cv.

[F4J]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
I saw that thread and addressed a question to Skuzzy based upon it and my own observations.  Below is his response.

Skuzzy writes:
Bombs use to drop straight from the bomber in AH1.  Now they disperse and create a carpet bombing effect, which is closer to how they really worked in WWII.  But we also added bomb radius damage, which was not prevalent in AH1.

So, we do have the blast radius, but the bombs are spread out more.  The end result is we can't take hangers out with a single salvo of 1K bombs from a single formation as was possible in AH1.  Using the 2K bombs it can be done.  Seems like an overkill, but it's what we have.

As far as sinking the ships, the guns and radar go first and then if enough damage is done the ship is destroyed.  I've sunk more than a few cv's and that's been my observation.  Recently I dropped two salvos of 2K bombs on a cv (12,000 lbs.).  Unfortunately I was lined up a little too well and my drones bombs landed to either side of the ship.  Only the bombs from my lead bomber hit.  Had to make another pass.

Hoefully we'll get the B-29 Superfortress someday soon and that'll help with some of these problems.

My last post was way too long winded, so I thought I'd create another post more directly related to the original question in this thread, instead of making it longer.

Some of you guys that are a lot better at math than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you drop 14 1000 lb. bombs from each of three bombers, that equals 42,000 lbs. of ordinance dropped. So then the question becomes one of the time interval that the bombs strike the target at, since time equals distance when the bombs hit the target.

Let's say my formation of Lancasters are moving at 250 mph when I drop my 14 1000 lb. bombs with a delay of .05 seconds, or 1/20th of a second between each bomb. My planes, and thus my bombs, are moving at 4.16 miles per minute, or .07 miles per second. .07 miles per second is approximately 370 feet. So, when I drop 14 bombs, it takes about 7 tenths of a second for the bombs to leave the bomb bay. The plane would travel about 259 feet during that amount of time. If the bombs all travelled fairly straight to the ground, they would all impact in an area of approximately 260 feet or so, plus the distance between the lead bomber and the drones. Since the distance between the lead bomber and the drone's bomb bays appears to be about 1 and a half times the length of the plane, let's add 100 feet to the spread on the target. In the formation the wingtips appear to be about even when viewed from above, so figure 100 feet or so in width between the bomb bays of the lead plane and each drone. So all 42 of the bombs should impact within an area of 360 feet by 200 feet.  


Since the HQ building seems to be a very large building, it is reasonable to assume that a direct hit on the building with one formation of lancs should be able to put the  necessary tonnage of ordinance on it to kill it. 42 1000 lb. bombs on the roof should do the job. I don't know how much dispersal was built into the bombs fall, but even with that, the HQ should be killable.

Realistically, I've seen several formations of lancs fail to kill it with good hits. So, this goes back to my earlier stated belief that the bomb blast radius is flawed. I don't think the HQ was hardened, but the effect is the same, if the bombs are wimpified. If my math is wrong, feel free to correct me on it, but this is how I see it.

[F4J]

Originally posted by ChopSaw

The dispersion Skuzzy was referring to is the wandering tendency of the bomb after being dropped.  In AH1 you got craters which perfectly mirrored the spacing of your bombers when the drop occurred.  This gave you a fairly tight grouping unless you’d just changed course prior or during the drop.  In AH2 each bomb apparently has a randomized dispersal.  Sometimes this results in a very tight group and sometimes you get a wide spread.  This means if you use 1K bombs and try a single salvo, you’re not going to bring a hanger down because not all your bombs are close enough to do the necessary damage.  That means you have to drop two salvos of 1K bombs to get each hanger down.  That’s why I use the 2K bombs to bring hangers down.  It’s a 100% reliable way to do it and in the B-24 you’re carrying enough for four hangers.  The same amount of ordnance you’d carry if you were trying to do it with 1K bombs, just in a more concentrated and therefore more accurate package.

Obviously these hangers aren’t as soft a target as what they were in WWII.  It takes 3K damage delivered on target to get them down.  A WWII wood frame and sheet metal job would go down with the lightest of bombs.  On the other hand you could have destroyed all the hangers on a WWII field and the field would still have put aircraft in the sky.  Not all the aircraft were parked in hangers.  It’s a trade off that makes the game work.

I’m pretty sure you’re correct on the damage modeling.  From what I’ve seen it is 2d rather than 3d.

I’m pretty sure that your drop of 6 x 500 lb bombs = total of 9,000 lbs. couldn’t have all hit the ship.  Some of them had to have missed.  I’m not saying this because of your failure to destroy the ship.  I’m saying it because I can’t imagine a vector you could have taken that would get all the bombs onto the ship.  Some of them would have had to drop to either side of the cv.  See my above posting regarding my drop of 2 salvos of 2K bombs in one pass.  Only the bombs from the lead bomber hit.  The bombs from my drones hit the water on both sides of the cv.  I was too well lined up on the cv and flying in the same direction as the cv was sailing.  When I’m bombing a cv from a direction crosswise to the direction they’re going in, I get them every time with that payload.  Well……unless the guy turns the dang cv.

I agree with you, that all bombs wouldn't be likely to hit the cv. However, on the ship I hit last night, enough bombs hit it to destroy the radar and 24 gun positions, which, I would think should mean mortal damage to the ship.

If the 2d damage model is correct, then the bombs that hit next to the ship rather than on top of it might be more likely to sink her.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by F4J
My last post was way too long winded, so I thought I'd create another post more directly related to the original question in this thread, instead of making it longer.

Some of you guys that are a lot better at math than I am can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you drop 14 1000 lb. bombs from each of three bombers, that equals 42,000 lbs. of ordinance dropped. So then the question becomes one of the time interval that the bombs strike the target at, since time equals distance when the bombs hit the target.

Let's say my formation of Lancasters are moving at 250 mph when I drop my 14 1000 lb. bombs with a delay of .05 seconds, or 1/20th of a second between each bomb. My planes, and thus my bombs, are moving at 4.16 miles per minute, or .07 miles per second. .07 miles per second is approximately 370 feet. So, when I drop 14 bombs, it takes about 7 tenths of a second for the bombs to leave the bomb bay. The plane would travel about 259 feet during that amount of time. If the bombs all travelled fairly straight to the ground, they would all impact in an area of approximately 260 feet or so, plus the distance between the lead bomber and the drones. Since the distance between the lead bomber and the drone's bomb bays appears to be about 1 and a half times the length of the plane, let's add 100 feet to the spread on the target. In the formation the wingtips appear to be about even when viewed from above, so figure 100 feet or so in width between the bomb bays of the lead plane and each drone. So all 42 of the bombs should impact within an area of 360 feet by 200 feet.  


Since the HQ building seems to be a very large building, it is reasonable to assume that a direct hit on the building with one formation of lancs should be able to put the  necessary tonnage of ordinance on it to kill it. 42 1000 lb. bombs on the roof should do the job. I don't know how much dispersal was built into the bombs fall, but even with that, the HQ should be killable.

Realistically, I've seen several formations of lancs fail to kill it with good hits. So, this goes back to my earlier stated belief that the bomb blast radius is flawed. I don't think the HQ was hardened, but the effect is the same, if the bombs are wimpified. If my math is wrong, feel free to correct me on it, but this is how I see it.

All math and predictions are moot when faced with the observed results.  I’ve dropped a load of 14 x 1K bombs with minimum delay of .05 set.  The drop started at the leading edge of the building relative to the direction of my travel.  My bombs hit where I aimed them.  The hits started at the leading edge of the building and trailed into cratering beyond the trailing edge of the building.  I conservatively estimate 1/3 of them missed the building entirely.  The 14K Lancaster load out is not going to work on an HQ.  You cannot hit if you drop all of them at once and if you drop in two or more passes, the building repairs sufficiently to overcome the totality of the drops.  Similar to my observations on hangers, I believe a tighter grouping of more powerful bombs is necessary.

Look to the third post on this thread for an answer to the question of HQ hardening.  It has been hardened.  There is no question of that.  As to the question of “several formations making good drops with no effect”, I’d have to ask what they were using as a payload.

For what it’s worth I think that a single formation of Lancaster’s should be able to bring down the HQ.  As hard as it is to get them there intact and on target, it’s not unreasonable to think it would be fair.  In one post here, it is claimed that eleven Lanc’s dropped one 4K bomb each and failed to bring an HQ down.  If they all delivered the entire package within a small amount of time on target, IF they did, it is unreasonable that it did not come down.  The healing/repair ability of these HQ’s between hits is, perhaps, too great.  Whatever it is and whatever the adjustment has to be made, it should be made.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by F4J
I agree with you, that all bombs wouldn't be likely to hit the cv. However, on the ship I hit last night, enough bombs hit it to destroy the radar and 24 gun positions, which, I would think should mean mortal damage to the ship.

If the 2d damage model is correct, then the bombs that hit next to the ship rather than on top of it might be more likely to sink her.

Like I said before, the gun positions go first and the final damage sinks the ship.  Don't drop enough on it at one time and all you get are the guns and radar.  Drop enough and it all goes including the ship.  Soften it in one pass, make another pass, don't expect the sum total of your bombs to complete the job.  Between the first and second pass, the ship heals/repairs.  Same with hangers and HQ's.

The bombs that fall to the side are not direct hits and therefore will be mere splash damage.  Pun intended.  Those bombs make a splash in the water, not a detonation.  They might not even be exploding, but that's a question for another thread.

[Flayed1]

I can't say much about the HQ but if you want to kill a CV just take a flight of B-26's with the 4000 LB bomb load and climb to 8K you can almost always sink the CV with this configuration.    At 8K the small ack guns cant quite get you and you just need to drop just in front of the CV.   This works for other bombers also I have done this with the KI-67's with the 8 100 kg bombs but you have to be lined up with the cv lenght wise to make it work or have another flight with you.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Flayed1
I can't say much about the HQ but if you want to kill a CV just take a flight of B-26's with the 4000 LB bomb load and climb to 8K you can almost always sink the CV with this configuration.    At 8K the small ack guns cant quite get you and you just need to drop just in front of the CV.   This works for other bombers also I have done this with the KI-67's with the 8 100 kg bombs but you have to be lined up with the cv lenght wise to make it work or have another flight with you.

Actually, I do it all the time with B-24's and the 4 x 2K load out.  With the exeption of one time, I'm always cross wise to their direction of travel.  Is it because you're using Ki67's that you have to be lined up with their direction of travel and I drop anywhere from 8.5K to 14K of altitude.  I've never used them so I don't know their drop characteristics.

[Jackal1]

I guess everyone has their wish list, but if I could change one thing in the game it would be to make HQ totaly undestroyable. I`m not holding my breath and I`m sure many would disagree. Imagine that.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Jackal1
I guess everyone has their wish list, but if I could change one thing in the game it would be to make HQ totaly undestroyable. I`m not holding my breath and I`m sure many would disagree. Imagine that.

Surprisingly, I'm not too far off from that.  If it's doable, then I'd like to know how doable it is.  If it's ridiculously difficult, then just go ahead and make the sucker impervious.

The way it is now, it doesn’t seem as if it can be brought down by anything less than overwhelmingly superior numbers parked on an HQ’s doorstep.  That cuts down on the tactics and strategies that can be employed and just makes it an aspect of the numbers game.  Whoever has the most, wins.