Author Topic: Anyone familiar with this theory?  (Read 376 times)

Offline miko2d

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« on: July 30, 2001, 04:36:00 PM »
I have read this theory many years ago and have not seen it mentioned ever since. It makes a lot of sense to me. I would like to know if it was ever refuted or even known?

 Earth is spinning peacefully on it's axis.

 Water vapor is picked up from the ocean and is frosen over the poles. It gets deposited as ice over land (several miles thick in antarctica) but not much in arctic regions because ice thaws in water. So far so good.

 Since the center of Antarctic continent is not at the pole, the mass of ice is not distributed evenly. There are miles of ice over land on the side of Indian Ocean, but just meters of ice over Ross Ice Shelf and none in the ocean on that side. Looking at the map I would say that there is twice as much land on one side then the other.

 Imagine you are standing on a rotating disk. If you stick your hands to the sides, your rotation would slow down, if you pull them in the rotation would accelerate. Sticking your hands up (redistributing your mass towards the pole) would not cause much change. But if you stick out only one hand - then you would begin to wobble!
 It makes sense that ice redistributed to once side of antarctica would impart significant force on the Earth. Of course the weight of all that ice is minuscule compared to teh weight of the planet and would not affect it's rotation. On the other hand, the Earth solid crust is only few miles thick floating on the liquid magma. So while the imbalance is too small to affect the Earth, it can be significant enough to affect the crust.

 What would be the results of such force? A slow wobbling drift of the position of the poles around the central point over several millenia - gradually increasing as more ice accumulates. Isn't that what the studies indicate?
 Of course it would not be teh poles that drift but the Earth surface over the poles.

 The pressures in the earth crust would cause increase in volcanic activity, massive CO2 and ash emissions and climate changes, etc.

 With time the oscillations would grow past certain point and imbalance forces grow so strong so that the crust would shift it's position over the earth core. Antarctica with it's ice will end up somewhere in the temperate zone and some other unfortunate locations over the poles.
 The increase in volcanic activity would be enormous and change the climate for a little while, some locations would almost instantly end up in the ice age.
 Since the ice accumulation may be slower then thawing, the ocean level would probably raise for a few millenia.

 The Antarctic ice would thaw over millenia and accumulate over the pole(s) - if there is any solid ground over them. Both processes would violate the balance again and precipitate the new cycle.

 Do we have evidence that something like that ever happened, let alone every few hundred thousand years?

 Such an event would see like radical shift of the magnetic poles. We do have evidence from fossils that magnetic poles did change positions. It seems easier to assume that the Earth crust shifted over the poles then some cosmic disaster that would re-magnetise the whole planet.

 Old poles position over land would have depression in the earth and water erosion patterns taht do not currently make much sense. Just such depression/patterns exist in Africa with opposing pole partly over Canada. Could the traces of glaciers in Canada be the result of it's polar location rather then ice planet-wide ages.

 The land that ended up under the new poles would retain traces of flora/fauna preserved under the ice. According to the drill samples, there is evidence of lush tropical biosphere that trived in Antarcic continent before the ice came. It is hard to imagine how much hotter a climate should have been to have tropical conditions in the polar regions. There would have been nothing alive in equatorial regions if that were true.
 Much more reasonable that Antarctica shifted to the South pole then grew colder all of a sudden.

 Such theory would explain multiple ice ages (in different places), magnetic poles shifts, religious events like deluge, legends about atlantis and other lost civilisations and many other things.

 Have you heard anything about that theory? It is so basic that it is probably refuted and forgotten. I just never found any reference to it.

 miko

Offline Broes

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2001, 02:21:00 AM »
There is a theory yes that this is the cause of the flood mentioned in about every religious document around the world.

Broes

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2001, 05:53:00 AM »
Thats crap,  no earthly amount of ice weighs enough to changes the earths rotation. Its pretty damn stupid.

Who came up with this???

Offline -lynx-

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2001, 07:11:00 AM »
That's how to win friends and influence people by Grunherz... :D :D :D And he lives in a country which has no objections to citizens carrying guns... I'd be afraid, very afraid if I lived across the pond... :D :D :D

Offline kreighund

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2001, 08:05:00 AM »
THE REFERENCE YOU SEEK IS IN THE BOOK 5/5/2000 WHICH STATES EXACTLY WHY THE POLES SHIFT..OR THE WORLD SHIFTS(POLES ARE STILL ORIENTATED UP/DOWN IN RELATION TO ITS ORBIT) THAT DATE OF THE TITLE WAS WHEN IT WAS SUPPOSE TO HAPPEN..WELL, OPPS..

REMEMBER IF YOU DON'T HAVE GREAT RADAR YOUR JUST A TARGET!!!!

Offline Yoj

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
Never heard the theory before.  Reminds me of Velikovsky.  Besides the mismatch of masses (the mass of ice compared to the mass of the crust is no more significant than the mass of ice to the mass of the Earth), the fact that the Antarctic land mass itself is not stationary, and the fact that Ice does, in fact accumulate over water very nicely (its thicker in the antarctic than the arctic mostly because its colder there and been so for longer), the two biggest problems with it seem to me to be the tie-in of volcanism and the question of magnetic poles.

Since volcanism has been a constant part of the natural process of sea floor spreading and subduction zones regardless of where the antarctic land mass has been, it seems unlikely that its being where it happens to be now is particularly significant.  Certainly if that argument is to be made, there needs to be more than speculation.

And, since the earth's magnetic field and the field orientation seems to be entirely related to activities in the core and mantle which are the vast majority of what the Earth is, again, any crustal activity seems very unlikely to have an effect - that would be like having the parsley on top of the stew determine how the whole pot boils.

As far as I'm concerned, this is not a theory - its a hypothesis (and not a very good one, at that).

- Yoj

Offline qts

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »
Ummm... no.

Try applying your argument to the landmasses of the northern hemisphere, or the landmasses of the eastern hemisphere. And read up on continental drift.

Offline miko2d

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2001, 05:11:00 PM »
GRUNHERZ: no earthly amount of ice weighs enough to changes the earths rotation
Yoj: ...any crustal activity seems very unlikely to have an effect...

 That is exactly what my post said - the Earth rotation does not change, just the thin crust floating on a layer of magma shifts around.

Yoj: the mass of ice compared to the mass of the crust is no more significant than the mass of ice to the mass of the Earth
 The average thickness of the earth crust is about 20 miles/30 km - 1-2% of the Earth's diameter of 7900 miles/12756 km.
 The mass of the crust is 0.026e24 kg which is only 0.43% of the mass of the Earth (5.972e24 kg) - less then 1/200th. That is hardly "no more significant".

 The earth crust is pretty mobile. North America shifts westward about 1 inch a year.
 Besides the tides move it up and down about 2 feet every day (IIRC).
 Liquid does not have static resistance, so if you apply force to an object floating in liquid it will accelerate until friction compensates the applied force.
 If you imagine tying a piece of antarctic ice to the string (enough to raise sea level by 210 feet/70 m) and spinning it around, I imagine you would get significant force. Apply that force for a few million years and something is gonna move...
  Ice sheet over North America was once comparable to the one over Antarctica. So you remove mass from one place and deposit it in another place and your balance must be affected somewhat.

Yoj: and the fact that Ice does, in fact accumulate over water very nicely
 Yes, but it does not affect distribution of mass in any way. Floating ice displaces exactly the same mass of water.

qts: Try applying your argument to the landmasses of the northern hemisphere, or the landmasses of the eastern hemisphere.
 The crust is solid, so any pressure in one point would be transferred to the other points over a few million years.

 I am not saying that this theory is correct. All the effects it mentions do have measurable values which may be insignificant compared to the rest of the forces (tides, continental drift, etc.).

 Quite possible that deposition of ice over antarctica pushes the crust down into the core and gradually redistributes magma to other areas thus preserving the total balance.

 I am just surprised that I've never saw that theory mentioned.

 miko

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

Offline Yoj

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »
Oops!

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]

Offline Yoj

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Anyone familiar with this theory?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2001, 12:04:00 PM »
The average thickness of the earth crust is about 20 miles/30 km - 1-2% of the Earth's diameter of 7900 miles/12756 km.
 The mass of the crust is 0.026e24 kg which is only 0.43% of the mass of the Earth (5.972e24 kg) - less then 1/200th. That is hardly "no more significant".


I was referring to the mass of accumulated ice, which is such a small amount relative to the mass of the entire crust as to be no more significant that it is to the entire Earth.  Yes its a larger fraction but still insignificantly small


The earth crust is pretty mobile. North America shifts westward about 1 inch a year.
 Besides the tides move it up and down about 2 feet every day (IIRC).
 Liquid does not have static resistance, so if you apply force to an object floating in liquid it will accelerate until friction compensates the applied force.
 If you imagine tying a piece of antarctic ice to the string (enough to raise sea level by 210 feet/70 m) and spinning it around, I imagine you would get significant force. Apply that force for a few million years and something is gonna move...


There is the problem - you are imagining a significant force applied steadily over a long time.  That seems wrong to me - its a puny force (its not the entire mass that is applicable anyway, only the vector force from any asymmetry), and its not applied steadily since its location constantly changes, not just absolutely but also due to the relative motion of the plate it rides on to that of the other plates.

 Ice sheet over North America was once comparable to the one over Antarctica. So you remove mass from one place and deposit it in another place and your balance must be affected somewhat.

Problem here too - you would not be removing mass from one place and depositing in another.  As you point out, melted ice distributes its mass evenly.  When the North American Ice Sheet existed (at least the one in the last great Ice Age), there was more ice all over, including Antarctica, which was essentially in its present position - it didn't get moved from one place to another.  It just melted.


The crust is solid, so any pressure in one point would be transferred to the other points over a few million years.

No, it is not solid - at least not in the sense of a continuous structure.  It is a disjointed bunch of floating pieces that are constantly running into each other in ways determined by convection.  Local forces do tend to equalize, through processes like mountain building and sea floor spreading, but there is no mechanism to equalize forces on a global scale.

This theory sounds like it predates Plate Tectonics.  

- Yoj[/QB][/QUOTE]