Pilot is too stiff.

[Morpheus]

LOL not super human l33t fighter Pilots like rv6 described.

[plank]

After playing some other sims I kind of liked the uber neck of teh 133t pilot in AH. Frankly, the motion sickness was getting to me. Maybe I shouldn't be flying a plane then

[Kermit de frog]

Originally posted by rv6
I've flown many times with AirCombat USA 1v1 in SIA-Marchetti Italian dog-fighters. RL planes with little razor wings and high-perfomance engines.  Yes, (per somebodys comment above) you DO strap in as tight as you can pull the 5-point military harness over your parachute straps.  VERY constrictive, but holds you in place when inverted and you push the stick forward (quite a rush).

As per head movement under G forces?  IMHO?  Ain't much differance than what you see on an AH screen.. perhapds slightly deeper "sit" under +G?

Side to side? (as someone said) didn't seem to be a real "head-banger" extreme, even in a unexpected snap-roll,,?  Again, my opinion from watching my own "replay" films after ACUSA engagments.

Bear in mind that you're wearing a military helmet, also strapped on TIGHT, and the lower ear area of the helmet will squash down on your shoulder tops under heavy G, and somewhat actually SUPPORT your head..

Playing aerial lazer tag in real dogfighter crotch-rockets, is pretty intense.  In a 1v1 both about the same skill level?  It always comes out as to WHOM CAN TOLLERATE THE MOST, SUSTAINED G's.

I've won more engagements by being able to out-G the next guy, than by sheer skill.  You know the gig is up, when you see the other planes bubble canopy splattered with breakfast, and the military IP wiping it down.

You both crawl out back at base, drenching wet from squeezed sweat, and feel like you were beaten up by a street gang.

Kinda goes like this for real..

4? 5? 6 sustained G's?  Most non-military pros' (armchair aces) can take about 10 or 15 seconds of +5 sustained G's.  I've spoken with the ex-military fighter jocks who ride with us about this.  They say it's a practiced, "accumlative" resistance thing.  Ie: The more often you fly under heavy G's, the more you can tolerate.

About to lock onto the enemy, after a 15 minute loop-dee-loop special??

Pull, pull, pull the stick a little more..  the big HUD glass-sight is only a few degrees from the tail of your adversary..  Take slackData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????ºvîºvî       267286202MltCpy2.10 FILL FILLed Sector; ST500DM002-9YN14 (CC4H) S1D5GMZYData Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????Data Recovery Labs??????????????me.  lean head up and over backwards, look at ceiling, as in the "Up" view in AH.  Have somebody get behind the chair, and grab you around the top forehead and pull back with all their body weight.  NOW.. try and move your head down).

THAT, is +6gs wearing a helmet.

Soooo..  the plane ahead of you is now only a measly 4 degrees above the HUD pipper!  

Pull back a sk'osh more..   You start to see little yellow stars, like when you rub your eyes too hard?..   The roar of that wide opened engine gets softer, and you can hardly hear it anymore..  Things are getting real quiet.

You just move your eyes up to look for the HUD site  and the enemy plane is ALMOST THERE..  another 1 degree!!

Pull back one last little yank..

Your eyes only see in the middle.. the edges are dark and fuzzy (just like in the AH SIM!) ..

6 and 1/2 G's..

The little yellow stars fill your vision, and turn to foggy white..  the last thing you actually "feel" is the burbbling of the Marchettis' little razor wings entering the pre-high-speed-stall "buffet"..  you feel it in the stick, just before you go to sleep.

The plane departs flight, goes ballistic, and does a full snap-roll before the ex-military fighter instructor pilot takes control..

You wake up about 4 seconds after G's are released, and you hear this on the radio..

"GUNS, GUNS, GUNS, Good kill, breaking off left.."  (you loose)

Your neck & shoulders are KILLING YOU, sweat is dripping out the helmet and down your face like a water faucet, and you lost the first engagment.

Only 6 more to go, and you'll feel like a new man! (or woman!)

AHahahaa!!

My 2 cents..


 RV6

Sounds like fun.  I want IN!!!!!:)

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Krusty
Well, in real life you don't glue your face to a gunsight and only fly looking through it. I think this concession was made simply because this is a game, and the various effects have to be balanced. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more motion, but game-wise I don't want it to be too extreme.

It would give me motion sickness!

Well that being the case. Can we PLEASE do something about the rediculous way pilot wounds are modeled here?

I mean at least give us 30-60 seconds to try to disenguage.
Now, within the first 10 seconds of getting a pilot wound Im going into total blackout.

If thats going to be the case I'd just as soon have been shot down instead of just wounded

[bigsky406]

Less oil on the wind screen and more blood please...

[Kweassa]

Thanks for sharing it with us Rv6.

 What I've often wondered about is;

Your eyes only see in the middle.. the edges are dark and fuzzy (just like in the AH SIM!) ..

 ...this part.

 Is the gray out/black out/tunnel vision process really so abrubpt as depicted in AH? In AH, when we pull hard Gs, the tunnel vision comes in a split second - bam! the edges of the screen suddenly covered in total black... and then when the G pressure is lowered it also goes away in a split second - poof! it's all gone.

 Quite contrarily, IL2/FB depictes it as a sort of a total 'fade out' - as high Gs are reached the process comes at a steady rate, and the entire screen turns to grey and then black... and when the pressure is gone the grey/black out effect also disappears at a steady rate.

 Which one has it right? Or is this one of those things that differ between people?? (but black outs and red outs are physiological issues.. can it differ in how it is manifested?)

[Morpheus]

AH looks nothing like what it looks like when thing's start to get grey and fuzzy. But i'm sure Rv6 flying in his Super Uber l33t jet fighter will say different. The almost complete red outs at 2 to 2.5-3 G's are BS as well. For me at those negative G's, its just a whole hell of alot of presure and it feels like your eyes are going to pop out for an instant.

[Mace2004]

Actually, given the fact that you're looking at a computer screen, AH probably does a decent representation of vision under G.  The tunnel is more of a grey than black (until u blackout that is), but the important thing is u lose all peripherial vision and can only see the very center and not too clearly at that.  The problem with AH is that you can only see the center of your set view (for instance, 45 degree up, 90 degree up, etc) while in RL you can move that spot around so it's easier to keep sight even with tunnel vision.  

As far as the complete blackout (or GLOC) is concerned I do see a problem with the way it's implemented in AH.  Steadily increasing G (or sometimes steady G when u just get worn out) results in a smaller and smaller tunnel until u can't see anything but it doesn't necessarily mean you lose conscienceness and it's relatively easy to play the edges of blackout in RL.  AH seems unpredictable to me,  Sometimes you can fly with very little tunnel and then wham! full G-induced Loss of Conscienceness (GLOC).  To me, this is more indicative of GLOC induced by a very rapid application of G where you go from full vision to blackout in an instant vice a steadily increasing G-load.  Also, for some reason when you begin to recover from GLOC in AH any movement of the stick puts your right back in.  This part makes no sense at all

Also, to get back to the main topic, I think that making the pilot "looser" isn't a good idea.  In RL, you actually have much more flexibility to move around in the cockpit by leaning forward, twisting your upper body, and moving side to side.  This makes it easier to look around things like the ejection seat or canopy frame but this is intentional movement, you're not being knocked around.  Think about it this way, if you're driving a car it's not very likely that you'll be knocked out of your seat by a fast turn since you know you're going to do it and are prepared.  On the other hand, a rear seat passenger who isn't paying attention (or wearing his seat belt) could be thrown from one side to the other.  It seems that making the pilot looser would be like making him a passenger instead of the pilot.  Regarding being "strapped in tight"...that's only partially true.  Your seat belts should be as tight as they can be to keep you from being pulled up in negative g but your shoulders are loose.  In modern aircraft the seats have inertia reels (like an automotive seat belt) that allow full upper body motion otherwise it would be almost impossible to check 6 or keep sight in a fight unless the other guy is always in front of your 3/9 line (like he should be).  I'd wager that WWII pilot's either had the same thing or flew with the shoulder straps loose to they could move around.

Mace

[rv6]

Hey All..  Didn't think that this "Stiff Pilot" thing would still be going.  It's a goody aye? LOL!

To what Mace just said, is another profound non-real-in-sim-only truth.  When your strapped in tight, you can NOT see behind you.. unlike hitting the REAR-Vier key in AH.

With a big fat helmet on, being pushed down into seat, the best panarama of view you can get is? about 8 O'clock to 4 O'clock.  at BEST.

You kinda go by the following when tangling at hi-G, without a REAR-view key (ha! aka: RL)..  

"If you can't see the adversary plane in 3 to 9 oclock?  He's behind you.  Manuever accordingly"

It's that simple.

Did you ever fly an AH sim Yak-9U?  Ever notice that gray colored pipe that goes around the top of the cockpit dashboard?  Looks like its wound with electrical tape?  Ever say, "Hm? Wonder what that is there for?"

I found out EXACTLY why it was there.  To help a frantic pilot look as far back over his shoulder as he can under hi-G, with an enemy on his tail.

You keep right hand on the stick, and left hand on that bar.  You push like hell with left hand to twist in seat and look over your shoulder.  You have to fight the harnesses (including chute straps) as well as 5 or 6 Gs' slamming you into the chair.

I've attached a cockpit photo of a ACUSA Fighter below.  Note the worn out brace bar above the panel.  Think this was ever grabbed before? LOL..

I guess?  The thing is.. we can debate and describe this until out of ink.

Only way to understand, is to drive to local airfield.  Hire out an aerobatic plane and CFI for an hour.  ($200? $250?)..   Tell him that you want to do 40 full minutes of hi-G Cuban-8 manuevers..  Tell him you want to get the "real" thrill of -3 negative top pushover G's, and +5~6 Gs at the bottom pullouts.

During this delightful flight, try moving around in your seat.. looking side to side.. tracking a spot on the windscreen like a gun pipper.

It'll come crystal clear to you, I gaurentee..       (heheeee!)

Cheers!

RV6

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by rv6
Hey All..  Didn't think that this "Stiff Pilot" thing would still be going.  It's a goody aye? LOL!

To what Mace just said, is another profound non-real-in-sim-only truth.  When your strapped in tight, you can NOT see behind you.. unlike hitting the REAR-Vier key in AH.

With a big fat helmet on, being pushed down into seat, the best panarama of view you can get is? about 8 O'clock to 4 O'clock.  at BEST.

You kinda go by the following when tangling at hi-G, without a REAR-view key (ha! aka: RL)..  

"If you can't see the adversary plane in 3 to 9 oclock?  He's behind you.  Manuever accordingly"

It's that simple.

So if I'm following you correctly RV6, you're claiming that in RL you can't see behind your 8 and 4 lines?  With all due respect, you've got a few hours flying joyrides in a commercial operation and I enjoyed your description of your flights, but with all due respect you're wrong.  I'm sure they strap you in as tight as they can so they don't lose a paying customer BUT it's still not the real thing.  In RL (I've got a "few" more hours) you push, pull and twist in your cockpit during a fight.  Is it tough? yes.  Does your helmet get heavy? yes.  Do you work up a sweat? yes. Is it doable? absolutely.  Like anything else in aviation there are tricks to doing it and it's an aquired skill that you learn.  You maneuver to maintain sight, unload momentarily to reposition in the cockpit, you reposition when you reverse, you push off the canopy for leverage and use grab handles, you can get the lightest possible helmet that's cutaway so it doesn't impede your view and fits closer to your head (mine cost me about $400 and weighed 3/4 of the standard issue one).  If a guy is behind your 3/9, and trust me on this, you're going to do everything you can to see that bugger and it's surprising how good you can become at doing it.  There are a lot of aviation sayings but one of the best is "lose sight, lose the fight".

Mace

[Morpheus]

Only way to understand, is to drive to local airfield. Hire out an aerobatic plane and CFI for an hour. ($200? $250?).. Tell him that you want to do 40 full minutes of hi-G Cuban-8 manuevers.. Tell him you want to get the "real" thrill of -3 negative top pushover G's, and +5~6 Gs at the bottom pullouts.

I have on more than a few occasions. So what's your point? Stop bobbing around from one dumb story to the next. You know as well as I do that no human in the world can take the kinds of punishment side to side, negative to positive forces  and still remain centered in the front view like is seen in AH during a fight.

If you dont beleive me whatch some cockpit footage of an eagle driver durring a display at an air show or better yet the blue angles when they're doing high G manuvers. Actualy, better yet, find some of the russians aerobatic films on the net and watch them. They push it to the max on a daily basis.

[rv6]

Whoa.. hold the phone there fella's...   I'm a low hrs PPL "fly for fun" dude.  Just telling it from a low hrs, non-pro point of view, ie: how it felt to me,, and with respect to that, how it'd probably be felt by most of the non-flying AH aces.   That's why I preceded comments with "IMHO".  Ie: There's guys who know lots more than me.

Military pros?  Or dedicated aerobatic pilots like you guys?  Can fly straps loose, and do just about anything.  My hats off to ya.   Again, just stating "how it felt to me"..

For what it's worth.  In the film playbacks, the ex military IP in the seat aside me was looking around and talking casually like "no big deal" when I was passing out from G-lock.  So, yes.. it sure can be done.  LOL.

Didn't mean to piss anybody off with general comments.

RV6

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by FiLtH
Eh..compared to other things this isnt that important to me. I do see what you are saying...it does seem like our bodies take incredible punishment without exhaustion.

Hornet pilots do what called a "G warm" where they subject themselves to a few high G turns to get the blood flowing.

Was this a WWII tactic as well? (just wondering really)

How about some of those speed pills fighter / bomber pilots take? street value 25 perks ea.

[Furball]

Originally posted by rv6
Whoa.. hold the phone there fella's...   I'm a low hrs PPL "fly for fun" dude.

sounds like most 1940 RAF or 1944/45 LW 'Experten'.... minus the 'fun' part...

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
Hornet pilots do what called a "G warm" where they subject themselves to a few high G turns to get the blood flowing.

Was this a WWII tactic as well? (just wondering really)

How about some of those speed pills fighter / bomber pilots take? street value 25 perks ea.

They may have done it in WWII but if so I think the idea was lost.  Although guys sometimes did warmup maneuvers it seemed to be an individual thing vice institutional until probably the late 80s when it started to become standard practice (at least for the Navy) like the pre-engagement checklist.  ( The Naval Infantry probably learned it from us ) It also serves to make sure everything's working correctly like your g-suit.