Africa discussion from Gen disc.

[devildawg]

Ok, so you say that the people in South Africa made there bed and now they must lay in it? Hehehe thats so funny. As soon as Mandella took office things went to cheese! They have one of the highest rape and murder % in the world, if not the highest. Didnt have that problem while everyone was screaming for independant S. africa. We feel so sorry for them because of the bleeding heart liberals make us feel that somehow we are responsible for there suffering, so we should send more money, more food, more help.
That is a crock of elephant dung. We tried that in ethiopia, we tried that in somalia, you know how many times we have been to Liberia to evacuate people from the handsomehunkes that cant do anything better than kill each other. You can try all you want about how "The Man" TM. kept opressing them. It all comes down to they are not civilized enough to STOP killing each other because of ethnics, to STOP killing for a patch of desert that you couldnt grow a soyburger on there if ya tried. We did try to help. We sent food en masse there and the Warlords there made sure that nobody who needed got it. So we send troops there to stop them. Then our troops DIE. Screw that, they have had several thousand years to evolve along with us. But it seems that they refuse or just wont.

[Tac]

Right.. drop a couple of H-bombs there... Darwinian selection in its purest application and then 2 years after send in some colonists.

Now seriously.. the US, nor the U.N., no one should interfere unless they commit themselves 100% to fixing the problem.

Sending in troops and food, however humane or however "right" it may seem only makes the problem last longer or increase it.

Historically, the ONLY instance where this commitment was made was after the second world war, when the U.S. and other nations that were not in economical chaos after the war freely gave resources to those nations that were bombed flat so they could rebuild and recover...help that was not only significant in all social and economical aspects, but lasted for over 30 years. That is the kind of commitment needed to solve problems like the one in South Africa.

Sadly though, the U.N. nor any other nation is willing to commit itself like that because there is no profit in it... and the U.N. won't because it depends completely on its member nations for support and vote to do so.. and they wont do it.

[devildawg]

No the UN isnt willing to commit because they are tired of having their soldiers dragged through the fuc$ing street, held hostage, getting mortered on a nightly basis.They are tired of sending aid only to be stolen at the airport by thugs. You could say that IT is a business. Why would the UN, USA, UK, France, etc. want to invest in something that they know would fail. The only thing that these people that are sending aid are doing is delaying the the wake up call that Africa needs. Even warlords and thugs need to have people that are alive to bully over.

[Dowding]

 

Ok, so you say that the people in South Africa made there bed and now they must lay in it? Hehehe thats so funny. As soon as Mandella took office things went to cheese!

If you remember, I said its a thought some people have. I personally think some responsibility must lie with the white folks of South Africa for the situation they are in now. For decades they lived an affluent life-style, based on the open and deliberate oppression of a racial MAJORITY. What did you expect to happen when Apartheid ended? A Martin Luther King type of eden to be created, where the children of slaves and former slave owners would skip happily, hand in hand, into the African sunset? Come on...

You criticize the Mandela government - what is the alternative; would you prefer a return to apartheid? Perhaps then you wouldn't have to be confronted by the legacy of such an horrific regime.

So you think sitting back and doing nothing will solve the problem? You think that the oppressed will rise up and overthrow their tyrant oppressors? How much time are you willing to give - 10 years? 50? 100? And meanwhile people starve, die of easily preventable diseases while they pay off ridiculous debts to us. It won't be they who will get the wake-up call, it will be us in a 100 years time, when a whole continent knocks at our door demanding to know why we did absolutely nothing.

As for the tyrants and warlords you speak of, how did you think they became so powerful? Many of them came to power after us colonials pulled out, doing exactly what you suggest now; absolutely nothing.

In terms of power, the Cold War led to active support of tyrants by the West, to prevent communist revolution or to prevent them becoming too friendly with the Soviet Union. Idi Amin, Mubutu... the list goes on. Today those countries are picking up the pieces.

The tyrants, left to their own devices, couldn't give a damn for their people - why educate them, for instance? If they can read they might get hold of a foreign newspaper and learn the truth of their country's position in the outside world. Why give them basic health care? That new set of Mercedes-Benz limosines would be a far better choice. Or how about that new tank? Would be very useful if the people get a bit 'upperty'.

When a tyrant does fall, another replaces him. Even if the new leader had good intentions, when he sees the true state of his country, he'd much rather tred the path of the 'tyrant' he deposed rather than do anything to solve the problems of his country.

Finally, if you want to isolate Africa completely from any outside influence, you are going to have to remove all the Christian groups working there. Something in their religion might prevent that, though.

[devildawg]

Look, you have some good points. You know the saying. "if a man is hungry, dont give him a fish, but teach him how to fish." We can give and give and give. That will never solve anything. As far as the religous pilgrims, aid etc. they are not doing the work of country, or $$$, they are doing the work of GOD. We can wipe there debt clean, what will that solve? You keep bringing up S. Africa's apartheid. Sure it was a crappy system. But those that were in power aren't getting what is coming to them. You know why? Because they got the hell out of there. My friend that moved here had nothing to do with apartheid. He hated it just as much as the majority in S. Africa. He had no choice but to take his wife and kids and get out or else he and his wife end up like three of his friends. Beaten, raped, and murdered. Sure, so apartheid is the root of most of the evil in S. Africa right now, but what about the rest of the country? No evil "The Man" (tm.) to blame it on. Yes I do say the best way to fix the problems in Africa is to leave her alone. Send a message saying we wont help unless you help yourself first. But with the current bleeding heart liberal administration here, there is no chance of that. They would rather you live and be dependant of the government instead of the other way around. But that's another topic altogether  

[Dowding]

There are no winners in South Africa, and the situation there now is pretty nasty. But the blame must lie with apartheid - tou can't escape that.

I've only ever met 3 South Africans - only one was ok. She was from Pretoria (I think) and was pretty cool, and had some interesting things to say. The other two, a bloke and a girl (if you could call her that) fit the stereotype all the way. The girl was said, in a matter of fact Afrikaaner accent, that I had a 'common' accent. Not a very good ambassador for her country, IMO. But I'm sure they're all not like that.

As for religious organisations in Africa (not just Christian), I meant that they wouldn't give up doing their work, because it was in their religion to so. So while there are people who are doing this kind of work, why not support them in trying to achieve more, and allow secular NGO's in there?