Author Topic: Dogfighting film  (Read 862 times)

Offline Widewing

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Dogfighting film
« on: January 17, 2007, 12:24:58 AM »
Film: Spit5 vs Bf 109F-4

Although it was well publicized when the revised Bf 109s came out, many newer players may not be aware of how improved the 109 series is compared to what they were not very long ago.

We found that the 109F-4 was a very close match for the Spitfire Mk.V is a one vs one dogfight. Typically, the Spitfire carries an advantage into the fight due to its tighter turning circle. Thus, the 109 pilot has to be very careful after the initial merge to get his 109 whoa'd down enough to get the flaps out. Once this is accomplished, the 109F-4 can give the Spitfire all it can handle. It is a bit better in the vertical, accelerates faster and while it turns larger circles than the Spitfire, it gets around that circle faster. That last item is very important.

In this film I am dueling with Sonic22 (aka Sonic23). Sonic generally flies Spitfires, typically the Spit16 and the Spit5. He's very good in either, as good or better than almost anyone currently playing. We had previously dueled in Spit16s, but I managed to flat spin the bugger. Up till then, no one had been able to gain any advantage. After cursing the Spit16's intolerance for my hamfisted flying, I switched to a Spit8 and was able to eventually wrestle control of the fight after several nose to nose merges. We then moved on to the Spit5 and the 109F-4. This fight was 12 minutes of give and take, virtually a draw. Sonic would get a momentary advantage and I'd take it back. It was nonstop, hard-flying fun. An excellent example of two very equal pilots striving to exploit the performance advantages of their fighters.

One great aspect of the Training arena is that getting hit does not end a fight. You fight until you are out of gas or ammo. This creates a sustained intensity not found in the MAs or Dueling arena. This is why TA duels are often better learning experiences than DA duels: They are uninterrupted.

Anyway, here's the film, all 3 megs of it.

Sonic22 vs Widewing

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline B@tfinkV

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 03:42:31 AM »
dear me we need to watch out for sonic even more than before, he is getting stupidly good these days!

good fight and excelent demo of the 109f widewing , some people maybe dont realise that even the G-14 is now a very competetive turn fighter.

S!
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline rodak

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2007, 01:43:35 PM »
The reason the spit usually out turned the 109 in WWII was the fact that the spit would begin to buffet when it got close to stall speed and the spitfire pilots used that to their advantage, meaning they would pull in the turn till the aircraft started to shake.  The 109s however with their stiffer construction in the wings didn't buffet, meaning the aircraft would not warn you of the impending stall.  Not knowing where the edge of flight was made the German pilots less willing to push the envelope.

Offline rodak

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2007, 01:53:48 PM »
Loved the film by the way... Thanks for posting it..........:)

Offline Benny Moore

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 02:25:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rodak
The reason the spit usually out turned the 109 in WWII was the fact that the spit would begin to buffet when it got close to stall speed and the spitfire pilots used that to their advantage, meaning they would pull in the turn till the aircraft started to shake.  The 109s however with their stiffer construction in the wings didn't buffet, meaning the aircraft would not warn you of the impending stall.  Not knowing where the edge of flight was made the German pilots less willing to push the envelope.


That's a myth of the modern Me-109 progagandists.  For one thing, the slats were ample warning of the stall.  The other fact is that the only Me-109s that were good turners are the ones in simulators and in the minds of modern admirers of Nazi weaponry.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 04:17:45 PM by Benny Moore »

Offline rodak

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2007, 03:18:19 PM »
I was just going by the comments of the veteran German and British pilots that flew them on a show that I watched on the military channel as they discussed the handling of both planes.  The general opinion of the Brits and the Germans was that the 109 could turn as tight but would not warn of the impending stall.

Ahh what do they know about it anyway, they just flew em those  modern propagandists............:)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 03:21:07 PM by rodak »

Offline Murdr

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2007, 03:19:56 PM »
<Mumbles something about See Rule #2>

Offline Benny Moore

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2007, 04:18:55 PM »
Right, I've removed the irrelevant section and relocated it to a more appropriate thread.

Rodak, don't believe everythink you hear on History Channel, or Disocovery Channel, or any television show for that matter.  They are there for entertainment purposes, not for passing on historical fact.  They have a nasty knack for screwing up important details.

Offline sonic23

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 12:53:32 AM »
Yea widewing this is why i liek to fight in the TA even though u cant kill anyone the fights are much more fun. thats cool that you recorded it i never really took the time to watch a recording of myself fighting, but that was a good film.
!S!

~Sonic22~
Sonic23 ++Blue Knights++
Sonic27 -==Hell Hounds==-

Offline The Fugitive

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 06:23:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Right, I've removed the irrelevant section and relocated it to a more appropriate thread.

Rodak, don't believe everythink you hear on History Channel, or Disocovery Channel, or any television show for that matter.  They are there for entertainment purposes, not for passing on historical fact.  They have a nasty knack for screwing up important details.


So instead of a documentry on TV we're suppose to believe you and your sources?

LOL!!! I don't think so

Offline SKJohn

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 12:48:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
So instead of a documentry on TV we're suppose to believe you and your sources?

LOL!!! I don't think so


I keep looking for the devastating firepower of the six 50 mm machine guns the History Channel told me the Wildcat is supposed to have, but all I can find are six 12.7 mm (.50 cal.) machine guns...:)

Offline straffo

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 01:34:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
So instead of a documentry on TV we're suppose to believe you and your sources?

LOL!!! I don't think so


His sources ???

He never posted one !

Offline Benny Moore

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 02:51:54 PM »
It's your choice to disbelieve me, just as it is your choice to offer up your mind to the people who want to control your thoughts.  I cannot change that.  But you are a fool to believe what you see on television.

Offline BaldEagl

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 04:20:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
But you are a fool to believe what you see on television.


I believe I saw Indianapolis win.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Widewing

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Dogfighting film
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 07:47:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sonic23
Yea widewing this is why i liek to fight in the TA even though u cant kill anyone the fights are much more fun. thats cool that you recorded it i never really took the time to watch a recording of myself fighting, but that was a good film.
!S!

~Sonic22~


My pleasure Sonic.. That was a fun brawl with the 109 and Spit. 12 LONG minutes. With every week, you get better and better. I figure you can hold your own with just about anyone. Keep up the good work!

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.