Author Topic: quick question for you ace pilots (Read 1018 times)

Vudak · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2007, 04:58:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!

If that's your dream by all means go for it, but if you're serious about going the aggressive route and learning, winning a KoTH might be a more fulfilling goal.

And wad'yaknow... Yer first chance's tomorrow

CAP1 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2007, 05:00:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
It's mental. You think "Oh crap I'm gonna die!!!!" and you'll probably make a self-fulfilling prophecy. You think "Okay, now how do I kill this SOB?" and chances are you've got an aggressive edge and have a better shot at coming out the winner.

ok./........what you say above is exactly what i used to think when i saw someone diving on me. and i ALWAYS did. then i was reading some of these posts....that combined with flying in furballs in which someone will almost always try to come from alt.......but anyway......next step was ""o crap where's the nearest help??!""" now, it's more like.......""what do i do to evade AND give myself a chance?" i now survive these attacks almost 40% of the time. i've had a few where i reeled the guy into less than 600 cause he thought i didn't see him, and rather than keep his speed, he did all he could to not go past me and get a shot....one in particular, i got a lucky snapshot, a few rounds hit him, causing him to do heavy evasives, bleeding the rest of his energy...from that point, it was simply a game of follow the leader till he gave me a nice shot on him.
listen to these guys.....re-read the ones ya don't understand, as that helps too.....it's helped me more than i can put into words!!!!

good luck

<>
john

BaldEagl · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2007, 06:32:43 PM »

It's easy for all of (us) vets and the newer elite guys to say "I am gonna win, I am gonna win". It's not so easy for a relative noob.

Just go out and fight. Don't worry about dying. Knowledge will come through experience, confidence will come through knowledge and your rank will improve with confidence as you fill your bag of tricks.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2007, 06:54:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
You have to know what to do also.

Above is why I said meet a Trainer in the TA and when I'll be available. You will also generally find a trainer in the TA just about any day of the week.

Right now you might not believe much of what folks are saying here but one day you will see some dude behind you and say, "it's cool, cause I'm just gonna sucker him and and send him back to the tower".

Hope this helps.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2007, 07:44:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BaldEagl
It's easy for all of (us) vets and the newer elite guys to say "I am gonna win, I am gonna win". It's not so easy for a relative noob.

Just go out and fight. Don't worry about dying. Knowledge will come through experience, confidence will come through knowledge and your rank will improve with confidence as you fill your bag of tricks.

yes it is easy for people to just say it, anyone can say it...... I was not just saying it, I was explaining how one should go about it and become disciplined in this way

how I meant it is in a way as you mentally prepare yourself, Situationally put your mind in a thought process.......this can be done by anyone from a day 1 beginner to a 15 yr long time player.........if one discipline's themselves with this thought process it can and will make them THINK with a never give up / never quit atitude.....

and Ren / dedalos is spot on, none of the mental aspect helps if one does not know how to fly their plane type or if they do not understand what their plane type is capable of and at what times one should or should not do certian things.......but that was covered in one of the other 6 to 10 threads dealing with the same thread topic as this thread......

a step further, you flying along, you see the bad guy diving down on you from your high SIX, you make a mental picture of this, and look back forward, scan around you ( all the way ) make another mental picture and append it to the one u had just taken, then look back up again, append the picture some more, build on to it.........start thinking on what & when to do the what.....

again this comes from 1st knowing all the "whats" you can do with your plane, this is the 1st step after learning stick set up/ views/comms/radar/icons/ take off/landing, stall/spin recovery...... now comes the whats - the BFM's

that is where dedalos & Ren spoke of and Ren mentioned TA.......

the opening question was :

Quote

from what I've read from all these thread about how to get sommeone off your six, all the best pilots don't attempt to avoid the enemy on their six, but try to kill them. This confuses me and I would like to know what they are talking about. How do you attempt to kill someone when they are on your six?

and his question/s was , well, I thought they were clearly answered...then the good part of the forums kicked in and we had added input to expand on in regards to his opening questions......

I mean no disrespect Bald, but I can not count on my 10 fingers , of how many times I heard a player who had been playing this game for 6 months, 1 year, 2 years come to the TA or the Trainers and say they wished they had done the TA thing from the start. They actually went about it your way of thinking ( seriously no pun intended with that ) and learned a lot of bad habits in doing so.......

food for though.....

~S~

humble · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2007, 08:03:48 PM »

In the end its pretty simple, plan the fight and fight the plan. This extends to any and all aspects of air combat. The clearer you vision and understanding of the correct choices under a vaiety of conditions the better you'll do.

So you can try and invent your own plan...or take the time to learn the time honored fundementals that have been refined for decades. Seems like a simple choice to me....

Going one step farther, while I agree 100% with TC on learning your particular plane a tremendous amount of basic flight manuevers (BFM) work equally well across all planes thru a majority of the flight envelope. These BFM are the building blocks of Air Combat Manuevering (ACM). So a very large segment of situational ACM work equally well across all plane types to at least some degree. So once you can fly the BFM and string them into a sequence to create ACM you need to then learn the basic recognition of http://WWW. What you do, When you do it and most importantly WHY you do it. The reverses you see in the A-20 clips are pretty identical to the reverse you see in the old hog clips...or even older 109E clips or ancient Ki-61 clips. They work very well against a majority of the plane set.

Now some planes are superior and some opponents are superior planes and/or pilots yet the A-20 is every bit as capable of fighting thru 70% or so of the flight envelope as any other. A guy 1.5k behind you is no more of a threat then the guy 1.5 in front of you....IF you have a fundemental plan of action. In the end its your relative ability compared to the other guy that will carry the day....or wont.

titanic3 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2007, 08:05:19 PM »

the easiest move for a beginner to shake enemy of your 6 would be scissors.

humble · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2007, 08:41:58 PM »

the problem with that statement is as follows...

1) the scissors is bogi dependent. One of the most common sights in the MA is some poor guy scissoring 400 yds in front of you back and forth vs a plane that slowed and minimized closure. There is no universal correct answer. The aggressor dictates the fight. The defender has to match his evasives to the attack profile...ideally in a way that denies a shot maximizes E retention and creates an opportunity to convert to an offensive posture.

Spatula · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2007, 08:47:02 PM »

Everyone wants to win, so thats taken as read. My take on it is the 'getting the bogey off your six' is not all you are thinking about.

Its not about doing one move and then re-evaluating and then deciding what the next move will be. Its drawing on countless hours of experience and knowledge to employ an all-encompassing strategy which will kill your opponent. It may manifest itself as a pre-planned sequence of moves, or a pre-planned tree of moves with several possible permutations of moves and counter-move responses all instinctively planned out without really thinking about it. Zen, the force, whatever you want to call it. Its all deeply learnt and established thinking patterns which have been gained over many years which take no or very little active cognition to produce.

In a way its not the "he's on your six" bit you're thinking about, its the 3 or 4 moves ahead of time and all the possible permutations which is going through your head. Getting them off your six is taken as read, and your thinking much further ahead than that. This is the mind-set people talk of (in my book anyway). If you fail to get them off your six, you die like anyone else, but its the what happens after that, which is critical. Those that plan for it will excel in the air. Those who don't die more often than not.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2007, 09:08:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I mean no disrespect Bald, but I can not count on my 10 fingers , of how many times I heard a player who had been playing this game for 6 months, 1 year, 2 years come to the TA or the Trainers and say they wished they had done the TA thing from the start. They actually went about it your way of thinking ( seriously no pun intended with that ) and learned a lot of bad habits in doing so.......

food for though.....

~S~

No disrespect TC. I wasn't suggesting that reading as much as possible and visiting the TA wouldn't help with the learning curve but in the end the only way you'll gain the confidence to put what you've learned into practice and live that attitude is through experience.

Not just experience with ACM, SA and your own planes capabilities but the capabilities of every other plane in the arena. I'm sure you and the rest of the trainers are good at what you do but that type of experience is only going to be gained by flying and dying in every type of plane or flying and dying against every type of plane.

And then just when you think you have it down you meet someone who can do things with a certain plane you've never seen anyone else do before. And so the learning curve continues.

humble · « **Reply #25 on:** August 10, 2007, 09:30:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Spatula
Everyone wants to win, so thats taken as read. My take on it is the 'getting the bogey off your six' is not all you are thinking about.

Its not about doing one move and then re-evaluating and then deciding what the next move will be. Its drawing on countless hours of experience and knowledge to employ an all-encompassing strategy which will kill your opponent. It may manifest itself as a pre-planned sequence of moves, or a pre-planned tree of moves with several possible permutations of moves and counter-move responses all instinctively planned out without really thinking about it. Zen, the force, whatever you want to call it. Its all deeply learnt and established thinking patterns which have been gained over many years which take no or very little active cognition to produce.

In a way its not the "he's on your six" bit you're thinking about, its the 3 or 4 moves ahead of time and all the possible permutations which is going through your head. Getting them off your six is taken as read, and your thinking much further ahead than that. This is the mind-set people talk of (in my book anyway). If you fail to get them off your six, you die like anyone else, but its the what happens after that, which is critical. Those that plan for it will excel in the air. Those who don't die more often than not.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #26 on:** August 11, 2007, 01:14:10 AM »

Alot of goods things have been written by a lot of good folks. I'd suggest you also remember this:
Stick time is great!
Quality stick time is 100% better.
You gotta know what your planes limits are. Slow, fast, up, down, guns...you name it.
You need to understand the differences in plane performance.
Yo gotta be able to shoot and score a kill when you saddle up on the guy.
You must learn tactics.
For every single move in the air there is a counter move.
For every counter move, guess what? There's a counter move.
A plan is only as good as the first move. The first move can be upset in an instant. When that happens you can toss everything out the window and go to Plan B. What's plan B? A reset of the fight.
Think of a dogfight as a play in three parts;
1) The first is where you begin with your opening move.
2) The second is where you either begin to establish dominence in the fight or bug for a reset.
3) The third part is the end game where you saddle and shoot down the bogie.

Regarding number 2 above...if you've correctly set up your views you can instantly see which way the fight is going and either take it to the end game or bug. You will know, without a doubt, if the fight is going south on you and can take action to roll, unload and bug for a reset. All the visual clues are always there, all you have to do is see them.

Im gonna post Boelke's Dicta for you in a thread here. There are probably 20 different sites that list it so you can google and find a copy anywhere. But, I'll try and explain it in that thread.

Hope this helps.

oldtard · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2007, 11:57:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!

YEAH you just keep thinking like that and I will kill you 9 out of 10 times