Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists

[MoeRon]

"The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe. With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started -- it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?"
-- Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time

[AKIron]

No doubt Stephen Hawking is a lot smarter than me but why would a self contained universe have to be creatorless? Only means that the creator of space/time exists beyond it. I understand that is a difficult concept to embrace.

[DiabloTX]

Remember, only Man demands that something MUST be created for there is no way that anything could have been already there.

[AKIron]

Remember, only Man demands that something MUST be created for there is no way that anything could have been already there.

From within the perspective of space/time, it always was and always will be. Without space/time how could there be any thing, beginning, or end? A question is can there be a continuation or event without space/time as we know it? I believe the answer is a qualified yes, it won't be an existence we can understand from within our perspective of space/time.

[storch]

I have given this great and deep thought and come to the conclusion that my first move before the Almighty will be to moon him. 

I like you so I will advise you buy asbestos underware.

[moot]

No doubt Stephen Hawking is a lot smarter than me but why would a self contained universe have to be creatorless? Only means that the creator of space/time exists beyond it. I understand that is a difficult concept to embrace.

It's not difficult.. The creatorless-universe may be just one of an infinite recession/series of intermediate steps to "creation" which some unimaginable "Creator" sparked off eons ago.  Picking the one we lowly humans (as we are now) can detect NOW, as the one final conclusive "proof" of supernatural/godly fingerprint, is pretty shortsighted.

I like you so I will advise you buy asbestos underware.

I'm sure he'll have a sense of humor, and disposing of an eternity and infinite Goodness, will allow for the time to go for a beer or two to shoot the poop before sending me to hell in eternal damnation.

From within the perspective of space/time, it always was and always will be. Without space/time how could there be any thing, beginning, or end? A question is can there be a continuation or event without space/time as we know it? I believe the answer is a qualified yes, it won't be an existence we can understand from within our perspective of space/time.

Anthropomorphism.  2000 years ago, we wouldn't have understood jack of what what today's average joe does...  Everyday happenstances 2000 years from now will be explonentialy more out of reach from us.. space/time may well be some tired old paradigm. etc.

[AKIron]

Everyday happenstances 2000 years from now will be explonentialy more out of reach from us.. space/time may well be some tired old paradigm. etc.

Then again, 2000 years from now humans could be living in conditions resembling the stone age, if "progress" continues in it's current direction. You and I won't won't be around to see any significant changes anyway you look at it.

[moot]

cue Kurzweil/DeGrey

[storch]

Probably not, since you'll be dead. No brain activity, no account to settle. You won't even know you're dead.

I hope for your sake you are correct and I am completely wrong.  I hope for your sake the creator says let's look at what you typed in response to my servant storch on that obscure BBS on July 1, 2008.......