What is the trick to bnz?

[JunkyII]

You can unload to reduce drag in a zoom climb, you only need to dive to unload and accelerate.

Isn't level flight unloaded?

[Wiley]

Isn't level flight unloaded?

Two different usages of the term?  My meaning is to have neutral stick/rudder inputs so the plane is flying straight.

By context I think they maybe mean it as when you zoom or dive, if you push forward on the stick to get the G meter to read 0 you accelerate faster/lose less E in the zoom.

So by my definition, yes.  By theirs, I guess not?

Wiley.

[FLS]

Isn't level flight unloaded?

Level flight is loaded 1g. Unloading refers to reducing radial g. As long as you have some radial g you can unload to less g or 0 g.

[Wiley]

Level flight is loaded 1g. Unloading refers to reducing radial g. As long as you have some radial g you can unload to less g or 0 g.

Followup question-  when people who were way better at this than me at the time were telling me to unload for gunnery, were they saying go stick neutral as I described, or try to get to 0g for gunnery?

Wiley.

[JunkyII]

Level flight is loaded 1g. Unloading refers to reducing radial g. As long as you have some radial g you can unload to less g or 0 g.

I got confused and I think this is quote is why for me

Followup question-  when people who were way better at this than me at the time were telling me to unload for gunnery, were they saying go stick neutral as I described, or try to get to 0g for gunnery?

Wiley.

[morfiend]

Wiley,

 as far as shooting goes,1g would be considered unloaded and 1.1 or more would be under load. 1g is normal, it what you would have as you sit on the RW.

 Unloading G for a zoom climb could be 1G or less,most fly with some G load unless they pay attention and try to unload the airframe.

 So I would say for shooting purposes,when it's stated to unload I would consider 1 G being unloaded. If you are in a turn you would have some G load and that will effect the bullet trajectory,whereas 1 G should have a normal trajectory.


 Hope that clears things up.


   

[Wiley]

Thanks.  That's what I thought.

Wiley.

[Kingpin]

Followup question-  when people who were way better at this than me at the time were telling me to unload for gunnery, were they saying go stick neutral as I described, or try to get to 0g for gunnery?

Wiley.

"Unload for gunnery" doesn't apply all the time, of course, since you can't really be unloaded on most tracking shots, where you are pulling G's to match the movement of the target.

However, unloaded shooting can be helpful in crossing snap-shots (as are common with BnZ attacks) and dead six shots, where a tighter and more predictable bullet stream can be crucial for landing enough hits to get a kill.  This is particularly true for wing-mounted gun platforms and non-cannon-armed planes, while a little less important for planes with nose mounted guns and/or multiple cannon.

For the OP, who asked specifically about the Ta-152 (which has plenty weight of fire for snap shot kills) on the gunnery side I would suggest using the Lead Computing Gunsight in the Offline Practice arena.  Simply climb to around 6-7K above the field and do some BnZ practice shooting against the offline drones.  This will help you learn to fly to the shot and properly lead the target.  Since the drones are turning, this will also be a good start for learning to climb back up while retaining your energy (using some form of climbing turn) to position yourself back above and (preferably) inside the turn circle and in a good position to re-engage the same target until you kill it.

As you get a feel for the flying and timing involved,  do it without the LCG turned off to see if you have learned the proper sight picture and timing.  Just be aware that actual live enemies will likely be going faster than 200mph and banking more than 30-degrees (as the offline drones do), so you will have to be even more patient and hone your situational awareness and timing even more for your live enemies.

Hope this helps!

[DmonSlyr]

Hi guys. I'm more of a turnfighter and have a lot of experience flying midwar planes. I recently starting trying out the German iron and its a lot different than the Spitfires and c205s I'm more comfortable in. What is the trick to being good in something like a Ta 152? I assume its BNZ. Ive seen some really impressive videos on youtube of what can be done with the 190s and the Ta 152, but I've never seen anyone explain what theyre doing or how to make it work.

Is there anywhere I can read about this? Are there any pointers in general I can follow?

I like a lot of the people's post in here. I've wanted to post, but I haven't had the time to think it out. I'll pick a few things you can work on to help you improve the BnZ style.

1. Fly a BnZ style plane. 190D, TA152, P38, just to learn the style  of E first.

Planes have a style. Some turn well, some fly high and fast. There are many in-between. Let's just keep it simple. The 190D and the TA152 are best flown high and fast. If you aren't high, you are very fast. I like the P38 for BnZ because you have to focus hard on SA while being a sore target ie, you don't want to be low and slow in a furball. It really helps you to learn how to fly smoothly, which is great for BnZ. 

So why not fly a spit to learn how to BnZ? It's reeeeaaaallllyyy hard. The craving to get down and dirty in a turn fight is too high. It can be flown in the BnZ style, but it's not the right style of plane to learn the concepts of BnZ. You will end up low and slow 9/10 times if you don't kill them on the first pass.

Here are the things to work on with these planes.

1. Get high. Always take the time to get to 20k or higher. When you enter the fighting zone. Dip the nose down to 18k to get some real speed. Now you can take control of the airspace and have the E to scope the fight.

2. Spiral dive on your enemies. Most people don't look straight up. Its also the easiest way to set up a shot and many people have a much harder time avoiding it. Just make sure you cut the throttle a bit.

3. Learn to utilize your roll rate.
Roll rate is your best friend in the BnZ game. The key is use the roll rate to create the angle on lift you want when you have to pull up. Roll first and then pull up. This will save you a notch of E and give you a better angle. The roll rate is used for aming, pulling up after the overshoot, and putting your plane in better angle position. It's so important because it can help you create ropes over your opponent. A quick roll rate also helps you fight the torque of the enigne.  Remember. Roll first then pull up or down. The 190D and TA152 are great for learning this technique.

4. Create ropes with overshoots, merges, E and Horseshoe stalls.

This is so important we could talk all day about it. It's the name of the game and gets you a lot of kills. The P38 is impervious for ropping unsuspecting turn fighters who think they can climb with it. The spiral climb eliminates their E more quickly by making it appear that they can get a shot. They fall, you do a horseshoe stall, it's gg. The P38 will help you fly smoothly and learn to utilize your E. E is the most important concept.

6. Always find a way to escape the fight or hoard.

 Don't do a spiral climb when there are high cons around. Don't climb up when there are a lot higher cons around you. When you dive for a plane and they turn away, level out and check your 6. Make sure nothing is behind you diving on you. Always try to escape the fight by getting reds out of range first. Once they are out of range get your alt back. You have to be really patient in the BnZ game. That's the hardest part. Make sure you are fast and make sure people don't catch you when you are slow. Always find a way to escape the fight.


The 190D and 152 will help you learn the roll rate BnZ technique while staying fast and being forced not to turn too quickly. The P38 will help you fly smoothly, learn SA, and learn how to keep your E stable.

By working on these with these planes. You I'll become better at BnZing and more aware of your SA.

[JunkyII]

TA152 isn't a BnZ bird She can turn when she wants to

[FLS]

Followup question-  when people who were way better at this than me at the time were telling me to unload for gunnery, were they saying go stick neutral as I described, or try to get to 0g for gunnery?

Wiley.

They were likely telling you to fly straight while shooting to minimize dispersion.  Unloading to 0g means no lift and no drag from lift so it's best for efficient acceleration but no lift limits your flying. Unloading in general simply means reduce your g. It doesn't specify the reduction because that will depend on your particular situation.

[DmonSlyr]

TA152 isn't a BnZ bird She can turn when she wants to

Hehe, the P38 is actually a pretty decent turn fighter too, but it's great for learning E and SA managament. It's a very stable plane. Fly it for a month and your E game will enhance dramatically.

[1stpar3]

I like a lot of the people's post in here. I've wanted to post, but I haven't had the time to think it out. I'll pick a few things you can work on to help you improve the BnZ style.

1. Fly a BnZ style plane. 190D, TA152, P38, just to learn the style  of E first.

Planes have a style. Some turn well, some fly high and fast. There are many in-between. Let's just keep it simple. The 190D and the TA152 are best flown high and fast. If you aren't high, you are very fast. I like the P38 for BnZ because you have to focus hard on SA while being a sore target ie, you don't want to be low and slow in a furball. It really helps you to learn how to fly smoothly, which is great for BnZ. 

So why not fly a spit to learn how to BnZ? It's reeeeaaaallllyyy hard. The craving to get down and dirty in a turn fight is too high. It can be flown in the BnZ style, but it's not the right style of plane to learn the concepts of BnZ. You will end up low and slow 9/10 times if you don't kill them on the first pass.

Here are the things to work on with these planes.

1. Get high. Always take the time to get to 20k or higher. When you enter the fighting zone. Dip the nose down to 18k to get some real speed. Now you can take control of the airspace and have the E to scope the fight.

2. Spiral dive on your enemies. Most people don't look straight up. Its also the easiest way to set up a shot and many people have a much harder time avoiding it. Just make sure you cut the throttle a bit.

3. Learn to utilize your roll rate.
Roll rate is your best friend in the BnZ game. The key is use the roll rate to create the angle on lift you want when you have to pull up. Roll first and then pull up. This will save you a notch of E and give you a better angle. The roll rate is used for aming, pulling up after the overshoot, and putting your plane in better angle position. It's so important because it can help you create ropes over your opponent. A quick roll rate also helps you fight the torque of the enigne.  Remember. Roll first then pull up or down. The 190D and TA152 are great for learning this technique.

4. Create ropes with overshoots, merges, E and Horseshoe stalls.

This is so important we could talk all day about it. It's the name of the game and gets you a lot of kills. The P38 is impervious for ropping unsuspecting turn fighters who think they can climb with it. The spiral climb eliminates their E more quickly by making it appear that they can get a shot. They fall, you do a horseshoe stall, it's gg. The P38 will help you fly smoothly and learn to utilize your E. E is the most important concept.

6. Always find a way to escape the fight or hoard.

 Don't do a spiral climb when there are high cons around. Don't climb up when there are a lot higher cons around you. When you dive for a plane and they turn away, level out and check your 6. Make sure nothing is behind you diving on you. Always try to escape the fight by getting reds out of range first. Once they are out of range get your alt back. You have to be really patient in the BnZ game. That's the hardest part. Make sure you are fast and make sure people don't catch you when you are slow. Always find a way to escape the fight.


The 190D and 152 will help you learn the roll rate BnZ technique while staying fast and being forced not to turn too quickly. The P38 will help you fly smoothly, learn SA, and learn how to keep your E stable.

By working on these with these planes. You I'll become better at BnZing and more aware of your SA.

That's a new one to me. Horseshoe stalls? what is that and how do you use/perform it?

[DmonSlyr]

That's a new one to me. Horseshoe stalls? what is that and how do you use/perform it?

Oops lol, good catch, meant to say hammerhead stall.

[FishBait]

EXCELLENT thread. Thanks to everyone who posted.