Change the map rotation slightly?

[Toad]

Well Beet, you never disappoint. Your last little diatribe fails to answer the question but better yet, you clearly show how you disagree with your previously posted commentary.

You said:

But oh, I digress. I'm speaking of WW2. Nothing to do with how you spend your online time. BTW the WW in WW2 does not stand for Weed Wackers. Thought you ought to know that.  Forgive me for seeking realism/immersion.

I said "The MA never was and is not intended to recreate WW2." I stand by this statement. Apparently you now agree.

You replied with the pic from HTC's into page welcoming us all to "the internet's premier WW2 combat experience". The implication of your reply is that HT means for the MA to offer WW2 realistic combat in the MA.

Note well that it says absolutely NOTHING about recreating WW2. It says NOTHING about "realism" It says NOTHING about immerison. It merely offers a WW2 "combat experience" whatever that is. It surely doesn't promise a simulation of WW2 starting with the invasion of Poland and progressing from there. Just a "combat experience."

It's ludicrous for anyone to maintain that the MA is meant to recreate a "realistic" or "immersive" WW2 combat experience. When the real combatants flew, they did not have the continual choice of flying the enemy's own aircraft against them. There was no Axis multi-plane B-17 raids on London that were countered by a Wing of British FW-190's rising to meet them.

Even to YOU, the most obtuse poster on the BBS, it has to be clear that the MA is not designed to recreate WW2 with any sort of realism or immersion. Indeed, you are aware of it:

suicide crap, LANC divebombing formations, and numerous other Game-the-Game player initiatives

All of these things are designed into the MA. HTC knows of them and allows them to continue. Yet you never stop complaining even though it's clear that the MA is what HT wants it to be.

Not WW2 at all.

It's merely a place where you might have some incredibly unrealistic WW2 style "combat experience". It's great fun for those who realize and accept this fact.

Your digression into what AH's MA is NOT merely proves my point.

The MA is not, was not, never will be designed to accurately recreate any sort of realistic or immersive WW2 air combat. The design of the combatant countries, the availability of all aircraft to all sides... everything points to the fact that the MA is a fantasyland loosely based around WW2 aircraft.

So, all your moaning and gnashing of teeth best be saved for TOD. It's your best hope.

The MA is not what you seek. It never will be.

For that, I am extremely grateful to HTC.




The animation is from Air Combat USA. Their offer?

At Air Combat USA®, you actually fly a light attack fighter aircraft and become a fighter pilot for a day

It would seem they offer a "fighter pilot experience; not to turn you into a fighter pilot or offer you a chance to recreate an air war. Nope, just a chance to do something distantly, remotely, vaguely similar to the real thing. In other words, pretty much what AH offers to an even lesser extent.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Steve
... who chose not to fly their way. As if, since they now furball, it is somehow less manly to fly any other way.

Steve, I'll let a little secret out of the bag. I delayed a loooong time in joining TAS after I met Rude at a KC lunch. I was a "lone wolf" type furballer. I just like to fight. Way back then, I think Voss was actually CO of TAS maybe and their style was just tooooooo boring for me.

Well, Rude's persuasive and he talked me into it. I tried to fly their way but it was very, very difficult for me. You remember the "Battle of Britain" film where the English flight leader is out training a flight of Polish pilots and they see some bandits? One Pole peels off and engages.. then another.. then another.. soon they're all in.

Well, I was always the first Pole. I'd see the bandits call them out and get told to wait till we had more advantage. But, like an eager Lab pup waiting to retrieve, I'd eventually dive in despite orders. And.. the other's would slowly follow me in.

Must have been real frustrating for Rude.  Eventually, I did become more of a "team player" but I was always restless in the B&Z mode. Truth to tell, we climbed so much it drove me to distraction. This was partly because Rude had to take a smoke break after a mission I guess. Anyway, it drove me nutso. Which made my "Polish Pilot" peel off the very first chance he got.

Anyway, point of the narrative is that I was talking to HT about it one day. We were bantering a bit and although my heart really wasn't in the risk-free B&Z style of TAS at that time, I pointed out to HT that Rude ran one of the top squads and certainly the top P-51 squad. TAS was killing far more times than being killed; with our teamwork, most folks never got to pull the trigger before they were back in the tower. Oh, it didn't always work like that but it did more often than not. That's the way we wanted it because it was "fun" for us to be able to basically fly risk-free and rack up tons of kills.

HT succinctly pointed out that it certainly was fun for us but that it was certainly not fun for anyone else to not even get a chance to shoot back.

POW. Sledgehammer right between the eyes.

Think on that a while.

If everyone flew cautiously in a risk-free mode...... how long would this game last?

It's not so much that we think it's "less manly"; it's more that we have come far enough along to realize that it's far less fun for everyone involved. Further, we've got enough experience on both sides of the question that we feel we know which is "harder" or "more challenging" to do successfully, individually or as a squad.

Just my .02.

Fly however you like; it doesn't bother me. As I said, the risk-free guys rarely get low enough to be a problem.

[SlapShot]

"I guess those are the times you save for your LA7 - a "if-I-screwup-i'm-outta-here-so-I-wont-die-and-I-can-sleep-tonight" ™ plane if ever there was one. I have film proof to substantiate any claims I might make, and I don't see why it's unreasonable to expect you to provide same. So until that time, go forth and urinate."

Beet 'ol buddy ... I pull the LaLa out of the hanger usually for goon hunting when defending. I has 36 goon kills and I would say that 30 of them are in the LaLa. Others come from killing the goon escorts and the remainder come from chasing down the "if-I-screwup-i'm-outta-here-so-I-wont-die-and-I-can-sleep-tonight" ™ planes (109s, 190s, P51s, etc.).

Beet ... u still don't get it ... I don't run ... I don't care if I die ... I will always turn and fight as long as there is gas in the tank and bullets in the hopper, so when flying the LaLa, I won't be running from you, I will be fighting you, then hopefully chasing you, and finally killing you.

What's real funny is more people will engage me when in the LaLa than when in the Spit V. I wonder why ?

[beet1e]

Oooh! Long replies I'm flattered that you guys took the time, especially Mr. Toad. Thanks all.

OK, Bufo, I guess you never knew WB... it used to be $2/hour. Some months my bill looked like a car payment. It kept all the tardz out. And many parties in the MA organised themselves into campaigns much like those that TOD may offer. That was made possible in the absence of tardz, kidz, and various idiotz with the fuel porkage/suicide the CV/Pork-n-auger mentality. It was much more gentlemanly. I look at this BBS today, and the amount of abuse that's taking place on the BBS and in the game is quite staggering. So I had no complaints about gameplay in those days.

Try to forget the on/off switch. There are other colours besides black and white. You seem to think that either we must have WW2 (8 hour buff sorties with escorts) or we will have idiotic 2 minute flights to the nearest fight, as during QWWW.  I'm neither looking for WW2 the way you mean it (black, switch in on position) nor gamey crap (white, switch in off position) There is a whole spectrum of colour in between.You are at the red end of the spectrum. I'm probably at the yellow/green area of the flightsim spectrum.

Fly however you like; it doesn't bother me. As I said, the risk-free guys rarely get low enough to be a problem.

Hehe, you haven't viewed that film I posted.

Note well that it says absolutely NOTHING about recreating WW2. It says NOTHING about "realism" It says NOTHING about immerison. It merely offers a WW2 "combat experience" whatever that is. It surely doesn't promise a simulation of WW2 starting with the invasion of Poland and progressing from there. Just a "combat experience."

Does it say anything about furballing? Does it say anything about wacking off in the weeds?

Slapshot - tough talk, but still no film - maybe tonight? But what's this...

"Beet 'ol buddy ... I pull the LaLa out of the hanger usually for goon hunting when defending. I has 36 goon kills and I would say that 30 of them are in the LaLa."

What the hell are you doing goon hunting? I thought you guys didn't care about strat (?) I thought you guys didn't care about losing fields (?) So why the need to shoot down goons whose only threat is to the ownership of your field that you don't care about losing? LOL - learn something new every day.

[SOB]

Originally posted by beet1e
Try to forget the on/off switch. There are other colours besides black and white. You seem to think that either we must have WW2 (8 hour buff sorties with escorts) or we will have idiotic 2 minute flights to the nearest fight, as during QWWW.  I'm neither looking for WW2 the way you mean it (black, switch in on position) nor gamey crap (white, switch in off position) There is a whole spectrum of colour in between.You are at the red end of the spectrum. I'm probably at the yellow/green area of the flightsim spectrum.  Hehe, you haven't viewed that film I posted.  Does it say anything about furballing? Does it say anything about wacking off in the weeds?

...and you expect everyone else to fly the same way you think is correct.  Or have you now changed your mind about that, Ms. Fickle?

[Toad]

Originally posted by beet1e
I guess you never knew WB...

Never assume. I was in on the WB beta chum. I played it and AW both at the saem time for a whle, then went WB total. I switched when AH went beta. I suspect I have a considerable amount of time in WB, maybe even as much or more than you. I probably played it long before you found it too.. don't remember any Beet1e in the early days.

You're the one that keeps lamenting that the MA isn't as realistic, immersive, serious, dedicated, honorable or whatever is your tripe of the day.

The MA is what it is. A no holds barred lawless place where if it's in the game, someone will be doing it. I have no problem with that, but I think you do.

You're the one continually denigrating people that don't play the way you like. Quake With Wings, Children's maps, tardz, kidz and idiotz....... and you have the effrontery to pine for a "more gentlemanly environment".

 

[SlapShot]

"What the hell are you doing goon hunting? I thought you guys didn't care about strat (?) I thought you guys didn't care about losing fields (?) So why the need to shoot down goons whose only threat is to the ownership of your field that you don't care about losing?  LOL - learn something new every day."

Crap ... the cat's out of the bag ... Sax will probably put me on report

Nah ... I just like to piss in their (missions) wheaties when there are no real furballs to partake in. I love seeing a 30 plane mission coming in and wacking all their goons while they furiously try to take the town down in anticipation of the goon's arrival.

As far as the film ... If I think about I will surely make one for ya.

[beet1e]

but I don't whine about the game itself. It's a very good game. But from the furball camp, I see whines about bombs, whines about maps, whines about suicide fuel porkers, whines about target hardness, whines about night & day, whines about defending HQ being “no fun”, whines about certain players being "timid", whines about jabo guys duffing all the FH at a field, whines about the pizza map - which deserve a catageory of their own... whines about HQ-radar being too "soft", and the devastating effect it has on "FUN" when the thing goes down...

...and yet you pour scorn on those who would climb above 15K to do something about it!

Yes a no-holds-barred lawless place where if it's in the game, someone will be doing it...

...and a place from which there is an inexhaustible cellar of whines from the furballers who never cease in their quest to have the game changed, and modelled in their own image.

[SOB]

Originally posted by beet1e
...and a place from which there is an inexhaustible cellar of whines from the furballers who never cease in their quest to have the game changed, and modelled in their own image.

So then, it's wrong for them to do it, but OK for you to do it?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by SOB
So then, it's wrong for them to do it, but OK for you to do it?

I have never requested a map or strat change.

Oh well, 15 minutes and no word from Mr. Toad. I guess he's preparing a doozie.  Relax, my friend. I'm going to bed so it's almost T-P time. Sorry if our normal gentlemanly standards of BBS courtesy have slipped today. I had a bad night last night and ended up tired today. Maybe slightly irritable? I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow, over coffee.

Toodle-Pip!  

[Rude]

.

OTOH, I don't see why these recent furball converts bray so loudly at others who chose not to fly their way. As if, since they now furball, it is somehow less manly to fly any other way. The hypocricy is amusing. Had one of them call me a "sky accountant" the other day, and he had spent the bulk of his AH time as a pony pilot...the irony gave me a chuckle, and this from a guy who has by far his greatest numbers of kills in a pony. Suddenly, their former "peers" are somehow less than they themselves are because they haven't changed flying styles to what is seen as "cool". When will they learn that changing their spots does not change their history? I'm disappointed they behave this way personally because I tend to agree with them across the board on what constitutes a good map/fight/fun.

Well i don't know where that came from Steve, but to put this to you and the rest, you're mistaken as to how I view those who fly like I used to.

If you and Beetle and the few others here had listened carefully, my point has always been that the MA should offer terrains which allow BOTH camps to have fun...no terrain should foster nor prohibit an exclusive style of gameplay, but rather afford ALL of us the opportunity to have some fun.

It's not until someone first, comes on to these boards and lectures or brags as to which style is better, that you will here from me.

Like Toad said...myself along with many others have traveled both roads...when someone who has no experience with furballing begins to lecture me or others about furballing or E fighting as if only they recognize the real truth of the matter, then yes, I will challenge that person every time.

BTW....it has nothing to do with being cool...it's about having fun. Being cool your born with...you can't buy it or wear it or talk about it...it's a state of being and yes, the older you get, this state of being evolves to a different state of being which I really don't want to talk about.

[SlapShot]

Here ya go beet .... 3rd sortie of the night ... all below 6K.

Caused my own demise by running into the broken wing, gotta get up close and personal with the .303s ...

http://ftp://AcesHigh:AcesHigh@slapshot.homeftp.net

go to the \films directory and get SlapSortie.ahf



added a couple of more for ya ...

SlapSortie2.ahf (furballin')

SlapLoneW.ahf (lone wolfin')

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Toad
The MA never was and is not intended to recreate WW2.
 

Toad has nailed thisone. Unfortunately, HT chose not to use the AW nominclature for the AH MA. Here MA means Main Arena. In AW MA stood for Melee Arena. The concept is the same in both instances. It is intended as a place where EVERYONE can have fun. It is not intended to be a historically accurate simulation of WWII air combat.  (psssst....that's what scenerios are for ).

[Toad]

Beet, you've whined as much or more than anyone you castigate for whining. You just whine about different things.

You pour scorn on maps and people and do so as much or more than anyone you castigate for "pouring scorn".

SOB summed it up; I need go no farther than this short agreement with him.

never cease in their quest to have the game changed, and modelled in their own image.

I swear, do you really not see yourself when you write this stuff?

Still waiting to hear you admit the MA never was and is not any sort of realistic, immersive recreation of WW2.

In short, you might as well agree and quit complaining that it isn't as "WW2" as you think it should be.


You'll look a lot less..... like you're continually reversing your opinions.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Rude
....the MA should offer terrains which allow BOTH camps to have fun...no terrain should foster nor prohibit an exclusive style of gameplay, but rather afford ALL of us the opportunity to have some fun....

 

Spot on, old chap!

The problem is that there are terrains that are not conducive in the least to fast action. Yet EVERY terrain allows cautious flying and war-winning strategy.

Thank Cod for Fester's effort; the only big map that really has a good balance.


IMO.