Author Topic: What do you brits think of this book and author?  (Read 4887 times)

Offline beet1e

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What do you brits think of this book and author?
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2003, 04:07:19 AM »
Storch,

I have been debating this topic on this board for months. Looks like you've only just started, and need filling in with the background. Let me help you out.
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Look at the Swiss, they are fully armed, fully free and have avoided involvement in all 20th century conflicts, any gun related homicides in switzerland, never read about them. Hmmmm.
Many if not most gun homicides occur where there is social depreivation/ethnic unrest/drug dealing/drug related turf wars. NONE of those traits applies to Switzerland. I've never been there, but I understand it's mainly white, wealthy, high standard of living, and does not need to sully itself by becoming part of the European Community, adopting the European currency, or by participating in any armed conflicts. I think these factors might have some bearing on the situation in Switzerland, especially the absence of racial tensions and drugs.
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You also should consider the per capita rate, not the 5000 vs 750 homicide numbers, I'm not sure but i believe the US might possibly have a larger population than the whole of the UK, Canada and Australia combined.
That 750 is for ALL homicides, of which only about 60 are gun related in a typical year. In the US, MOST homicides involve guns, and handguns at that. The figure just for gun homicides in the US is some years has been as high as 13,000. So we're not comparing 5000 with 750 on a per capita basis, we're comparing 13,000 with 60 on a per capita basis.

The very fact that in addition to the 60 gun homicides we have each year there are about 690 homicides committed by other means demonstrates that people are having to go to great lengths to commit their wrongdoings by other methods, and that if guns were freely available, our annual tally of homicides would rise from 750 to perhaps as many as 3000. But those other methods are much less efficient than guns. You have to get close to wound or kill with a sharp object; a gun can kill at long range. Just last month I fired Lazs's .44 Magnum - a weapon of awesome power. I can only imagine that a single shot to any location of a human torso would be sufficient to cause death. The killing process is made so much easier and more efficient by the use of a gun, hence the handgun being a killer's chosen instrument where available.

But you made some good points. Away from high risk areas in America, I feel completely safe. In California last month, we never felt threatened or at risk.
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I mean please send any available weapons to help our allies blah blah blah, who were so sheepish as to allow their gov't (more people have been killed by their own gov't than by virus or bacteria) to disarm them without so much as a muted complaint.
That situation predates me, but I don't recall my grandparents (all of whom were born in the Victorian era) lamenting the absence of guns. My guess is that there were never many guns in the first place, and that regulating the supply of guns was to avoid a disaster which was only too apparent in America - the wild west of the 1800s, followed by the gangster years of the 1920s.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #106 on: November 23, 2003, 09:45:14 AM »
Our rate is about 5.5 per 100,000 for all homicides and going down..   about 51% of those are by a very small portion of the population (minorities)  Our white homicide rate is allmost exactly like Canadas.

england has about half of that and is going up.  They imprison blacks and minorities at the exaact same rate as we do... 6/1 ratio black/white and 2/1 ratio all other minorities/white.

it matters not if guns are allowed or not... the homicide rate stays the same or... goes down with firearms freedom.... crime goes down with enlightened or nonexistent gun laws...

you gave away your rights for nothing and it will bite you in the butt.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2003, 03:02:25 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
england has about half of that and is going up.  They imprison blacks and minorities at the exaact same rate as we do... 6/1 ratio black/white and 2/1 ratio all other minorities/white.
Two errors. Our homicide rate is about 750 a year, with a population of about 58,000,000. In fact that's the whole population, including Scotland, whereas the crime stats usually focus on England and Wales, with Scotland separate. Even so, that value comes to a rate of about 1.29 which is NOT about half of the US rate. In fact it's less than a quarter.

The other error is that you said your homicide rate is going down. If you would look to the FBI link that Nashwan posted above ^^ you will see that the US saw a 1% increase between 2001 and 2002.

I sleep well at nights. There hasn't been a murder in this town in the 21 years that I've lived here. As someone once said on this BBS, I feel "as threatened as I might at a Church bingo night". Can you remember who said that?  ;)

And because I feel as threatened as I might at a Church bingo night, I don't mind not having a gun. Any blacks around here sound like Alec Guinness anyway. :D

You, however, need to keep that .45 semi-auto next to your bed when you go to sleep, loaded with one in the spout. Do you also have the hammer back to minimise the trigger load for when something bad happens?

Now here's the thing. I don't blame you for doing that, if you feel threatened as clearly you do. After all, the chances of that something bad happening are far higher where you live than where I live.   Do think the availability of guns has anything to do with it?

Offline ravells

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« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2003, 06:03:24 PM »
looks like you're not going to get a repeat invite, beetle...;)

Ravs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #109 on: November 24, 2003, 08:44:42 AM »
rave... you would be wrong again... beetle, or you are welcome to visit me any time... bring your women.

beetle... nice dodge... you left out my homeland?  with Scotland... your rate is about half ours per 100,000 if you leave out black and minority homicides in the U.S. then it is close enough to not get excited (or smug) about.  your crime rate is going up while ours is going down.

you gave up your, and worse, your fellow mans, rights.... for nothing.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #110 on: November 24, 2003, 11:13:57 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... nice dodge... you left out my homeland?  with Scotland... your rate is about half ours per 100,000 if you leave out black and minority homicides in the U.S. then it is close enough to not get excited (or smug) about.  your crime rate is going up while ours is going down.

you gave up your, and worse, your fellow mans, rights.... for nothing.
I guess you still haven't looked at the FBI links provided by Nashwan. US crime up 1% between 2001-2002. But...
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if you leave out black and minority homicides in the U.S. then it is close enough to not get excited (or smug) about.
Nice massaging attempt. How about if we also leave out black and minority homicides in the UK so that we're still comparing like with like? Most of the shootings I've heard about in the UK this year were of blacks/gang/drug related. They include two teenage girls shot dead at a hair salon (apparently the killer was the brother of one of the girls) and a seven year old girl who was shot in the back to prevent her bearing witness to the shooting death moments earlier of her drug dealer father. These shooting deaths both here and in the US seem to arise out of the same thing...

... do you think the availability of guns might have something to do with it?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2003, 11:41:55 AM »
LOL beetle.... 1%?  It went down the year before  a variation of 1% is pretty much no variation.

storch... none of those things are possible in england... they were in the past but they are outlawed now.

beetle and rave.... so how much has your homicide rate gone down since the draconian 95-96  gun ban?

you gave up your rights for nothing.

talked to a sherriff rangemaster 20 minutes ago... he can't believe what girly men you are all scared of firearms and all.
lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2003, 11:43:33 AM »
Storch. We have gun control, and no-one is supposed to have guns. The law is like any other law, and cannot be expected to be perfect. There are transgressors. I don't know where criminals get handguns. Blackmarket supply would be my guess. Our laws contain the annual homicide toll to about 800. It's bad, but not as bad as 6000+.

I've never encountered a mad dog and probably never will. I don't think it would be worth carrying a gun just to guard against something that's never happened to me or to anyone else I know. Smacks of paranoia.

Ah yes, the old chestnut about the government going over the edge. :rolleyes: Your remarks don't belong in this century or even the last. How would you handle it? A possé of like minded pot-bellied civilians dressed in jeans and Harley Davidson T-shirts with reverse baseball caps waving handguns in the direction of Washington? Oh puhleeeze... Gimme a break...

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2003, 11:57:57 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle and rave.... so how much has your homicide rate gone down since the draconian 95-96  gun ban?
I think it was 1997, but it was in response to a Columbine-style mass shooting at a school in Dublane in your familty seat of Scotland. The ban was pretty transparent to me as I had to take no action. Would have been like banning cigarettes - I don't buy them anyway.

I guess our government along with those of many other countries too numerous to list believes that if there were a limitless supply of guns, then it would be inevitable that they would find their way into the wrong hands - the hands of criminals.

But even if gun homicides in Britain were eliminated overnight, that would equate to a drop of about 60. You would consider that to be a very small number considering you think that 6000+ dead is a pittance worth paying for the right to have guns.

Wonder why there are so many unarmed societies around the world. Their governments seem to want to keep the lid on crime, and fear it would skyrocket if policy were changed. What do think their concerns are based on? Do you think the availability of guns might have something to do with it?

Offline ravells

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« Reply #114 on: November 24, 2003, 12:24:37 PM »
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talked to a sherriff rangemaster 20 minutes ago... he can't believe what girly men you are all scared of firearms and all.


Now we get to the nub of it. There is something masculine and virile about owning a gun. Lasz...we have made a choice to ban guns in public circulation here. That is not the same thing about being 'afraid' to own one. As I said on an earlier post, I fired plenty of guns in school and I do not find the thought of owning a gun scary in itself.  I have never met anyone here who is frightened of firearms as such.

What we are concerned about is making those firearms available in general circulation and so far it has worked for us.

This 'girly men' thing you have in your head really needs to be addressed. The fact that we have chosen not to have widespread gun ownership has nothing to do with individual courage (both male and female). We have as much of that here as there is anywhere else, I'm sure.

Ravs

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2003, 01:29:22 PM »
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Originally posted by storch
Where are the brit criminals getting their guns ?  Do the law abiding citizens have a means of self defense ?  What if a mad dog tries to attack you while out for a stroll ?  What if your Gov't goes completely over the edge ?


This deserves a reply as it points to the cultural gulf between the US and the UK.

Brit criminals get their guns either by activating replicas which sounds really dangerous and by smuggling them in often on the back of drug shipments.

Law abiding citizens do have a means of self defense. Anyone can own a shotgun or even a rifle as long as they meet whatever requirements the police want. But in any case a baseball bat or in England a cricket bat does very nicely thank you as most criminals are in fact unarmed.

No mad dogs, rabies is non existent.

As for the British government going over the edge. LOL As an Irishman I can claim to be unbiased. I just can't imagine a British government going over the edge in anything and hasn't done so since Cromwell or Henry VIII.  It's just not in the British character.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #116 on: November 24, 2003, 02:18:22 PM »
if all the criminals are so easy to deter with a bat or fists.... how do yu explain the huge amount of burglaries where the house is occupied?   the increase in violent attacks and rapes?     Perhaps better bat training?  

If your homicide rate is unchanged weather there is a firearms ban or not then the only explanation for a ban is womanly hysteria or .... something more sinister by the government.

yu gave up your rights for nothing.  

lazs

Offline ravells

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« Reply #117 on: November 24, 2003, 02:29:56 PM »
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womanly hysteria


There it is again...

Offline Furball

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« Reply #118 on: November 24, 2003, 03:18:00 PM »
Whenever i think of gun control, i think of bad drivers.  How many fuggin idiots are on the road that are unable to comprehend how to drive?  Now think if every one of those fuggin idiots was able to own, and use firearms.

No thanks, its fine here just the way it is.  The people that need to carry guns do so.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline Torque

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« Reply #119 on: November 24, 2003, 06:45:40 PM »
So what if all of a sudden the miccosuki and seminole with military gear decided to reclaim their land. :rolleyes: