Author Topic: NEXT AH Scenario - RURH  (Read 7087 times)

Offline jordi

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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2003, 11:02:03 PM »
Low levels of precision led to massive amounts of damage in Germany and Japan in World War II. The military measures precision in a complex term called "circular error probable," or CEP. That means the distance from the intended point of impact that at least 50 percent of munitions can be expected to land within.

The CEP of bombs dropped from the WWII-era B-17 was 3,300 feet. Only half of the bombs dropped were expected to land within 3,300 feet of their intended target. "If you wanted to have a high probability of destruction of a target of 60 (feet) by 100 feet, you'd need about 1,500 airplanes and about 9,000 bombs," Crowder said.  ( Not sure how ACCURATE those numbers are ? )

----

Taken from some notes made by a B29 Bombadier.

Part One: What is CEP?

In order to qualify as a bombardier, a bombardier in training dropped a
total of 100 single releases from varying altitudes to establish his
"Probable Circular Error" (CEP). His CEP had to be less than 200 feet to
qualify him as a visual bombardier.

Before he began to drop bombs for official scoring, he was given ground
training on a simulator and in the classroom, then was allowed to drop 10
practice releases (during a series of three practice missions), to "familiarize"
 him with the task. His CEP for the practice missions had to be within 500
feet before he was allowed to drop bombs for qualification.

If it was not, he was given a check ride and intensive training for 10 more
releases during a series of practice missions, then was given another check
ride. He faced  elimination (was "Washed Out" of the course) if his CEP had
not been reduced to below 500 feet for the total of  20 practice releases.

After qualifying as a bombardier, every release he made was figured into his
CEP for his entire career.

This CEP enabled the mission planners to predict his performance as a
bombardier making his own aimed drops, and additionally gave them planning
factors to predict the damage that could be expected on a given target from
any altitude of release, thus helping to select the drop altitude for that mission.

It also helped them to plan formation size for the "Toggleers" who dropped
on that lead bombardier's release; and how many formations of planes to send
over a given target; as well as what bomb load to put on them.

So you see, CEP was a very important planning factor, for based on it,
planners were able to select the lead bombardiers; size of the formations;
number of formations; altitude of release; bomb load; aiming point(s) and
intervalometer setting, in order to destroy a given target.

---
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2003, 11:42:05 PM »
Yeah I got it. I looked it after I made my reply.

The question now is; will the scoring be based on the amount of "tonnage on target" (amount of ordnance dropped in 3,300ft circle around a target) or will you have to actually "blow stuff up"?

The types of factory "complexes" used in the Big Week event were perfect for area bombing. There was plenty of stuff to blow up at complexes and there were quite a few of them.

If you are going for CEP/tonnage on target what are the targets (factories, cities etc)?

How many bombers?

How many bombs inside the target area?

See what you started!!! :p

Actually, these questions can be left to the cm's and side co's. Anything is better then the third buiding on the right behind the green truck. :)

Offline Easyscor

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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2003, 02:38:11 AM »
:mad: So, if we want to make sure we score high in this setup we salvo 30 at delay .05 and put all the bombs in the middle - bomb load determined wheather scoring hits or tonage.  Not particularly satisfying for guys who like to blow things up.  One of these days I'd like to see huge cities with factories where we get points for hitting the factories and loose points for hitting the houses and hospitals.  Maybe in the CT.
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Offline blackwitch

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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2003, 03:14:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Easyscor
:mad: So, if we want to make sure we score high in this setup we salvo 30 at
 <> SNIP <>
where we get points for hitting the factories and loose points for hitting the houses and hospitals.  Maybe in the CT.


Hiya Batz :aok

To all...

As my squadron are seriously considering signing up for bombers can I just add that we shouldn't get too fixated on this aspect, its importance is only going to be if it's related to a Victory condition, to me we should forget bombing accuracy and concentrate on how many planes are shot down, remember the scenario is to simulate the 8th's struggle against the LW.

In reality this meant USAAF bombers flying in "Groups", flying as a whole unit - like a shoal of fish - the USAAF fighters had to protect the bombers as much as possible during thier flight, range permitting, and the LW of course had to try to stop the bombers.

A more important question is going to be how far are the Thunderbolts going to be allowed to escort the bombers? in mid '43 rhey couldn't go all the way to the Ruhr but the bombers still went that far and suffered heavy losses.

IMHO if you stop the escorts too far back into France the LW will (smartly) just wait till the escorts reverse and then they'll "have at" the bombers. We need scenario playability and enjoyability.

I foresee the biggest whine will be the lethality of the B-17's guns.
But you don't need to be Einstien to predict that

Offline jordi

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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2003, 06:29:52 AM »
WE are working on the RIGHT BALANCE between all aspects of the Scenario.

It will not be perfect of course.

But you have the right FEEL for the Scenario.

The GOAL is to get the Bombers OVER THE TARGET - DROP ON TARGET - and then get them home !

We are going to work real hard to get as many DEDICATED BOMBER Squads involved to make this work.

The Escort groups main concern is protecting the bombers - not racking up individual Kill totals and streaks - if they can drive off a Wave of LW Interceptors and NOT get into a chase LOW and  on the deck therfore leaving the bombers unprotected they have done thier job !

The LW will have some 3rd country radar setup to help vector them into the possible bomber formations. They will need very good communications to coordiante the right attacks at the right place to inflict the maximum damage while keep thier loses to a minimum so they can live and fight another day.
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Offline blackwitch

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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2003, 06:54:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
WE are working on the RIGHT BALANCE between all aspects of the Scenario.

It will not be perfect of course.

But you have the right FEEL for the Scenario.

The LW will have some 3rd country radar setup to help vector them into the possible bomber formations. They will need very good communications to coordiante the right attacks at the right place to inflict the maximum damage while keep thier loses to a minimum so they can live and fight another day.


Hi Jordi :D

However the detail works out I'm sure it'll be FUN :)

whomever is going to be the LW RADAR controller, if he wants some tips I can pass on what I learnt from when we did this in the BofB scenario (though I understand (s)he'll want to do it their own way).

To those considering being a RADAR Controller (I take it there'll be more than 1) DEFINATELY give it a go, all those that did it the BofB scenario REALLY enjoyed it, it makes it more "REAL" for the pilots as well being vectored.

ps, you got a commander for the 2nd TAF yet ?

Offline jordi

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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2003, 12:49:35 PM »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jordi
OK - now I understand.

We are looking at Summer / Fall of 43 for the time frame.

Does this answer your question ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.. and no  

I suppose what I'm asking is will the USAAF and the RAF have one strategy and work together OR will the RAF and the USAAF have different strategies and work seperately (more historically accurate)?

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2nd T.A.F.

----

Ok - If we end up going with just 4 Frames we are looking at probably just 1 FRAME of RAF Bombing. Since the CO will be the SAME for The Allied Side for all frames then it is really a moot point in all reality.
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Offline Easyscor

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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2003, 01:54:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blackwitch
...can I just add that we shouldn't get too fixated on this aspect, (bombing accuracy)...
Yeah, I know you guys are right but it's pretty gamey and not particularly fair sounding to the LW side either.  I'm sure it will be fun and Jordi will make something workable so just keep up the good work.:aok

How about a small bonus for accuracy? ;)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2003, 01:57:24 PM by Easyscor »
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Offline jordi

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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2003, 02:39:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Easyscor
I'm sure it will be fun and Jordi will make something workable so just keep up the good work.:aok

How about a small bonus for accuracy? ;)


Where do I send the $5's ??

Thanks,
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Pulled out of Mothballs for DGS Allied Bomber Group Leader :)

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Offline Easyscor

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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2003, 04:21:24 PM »
:rofl
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Offline blackwitch

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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 04:41:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
quote:


Ok - If we end up going with just 4 Frames we are looking at probably just 1 FRAME of RAF Bombing. Since the CO will be the SAME for The Allied Side for all frames then it is really a moot point in all reality.


Ahhh right :)

My mistake I thought that the allied side would have the RAF AND USAAF flying for all 4 frames.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 05:08:39 PM »
Why not do it like in Okinawa with a night and day periods in a single frame?

Ofcourse this would double the length of a single frame. 3 hours frames 1 1/2 hours each?

What's the map scale? Are the bombers/allies air starting?

You may loose numbers at night but even so as long as you have the correct ratio of night fighters vrs bombers.

BTW who is making the map? Or are you using an existing map?


If you a making a map keep in mind "Flakfestung Ruhr". Or as some allies called it "Happy Valley" and "Land of no return".

On the TE forum I posted these links:

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/gradnetzb.htm

http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/plaumap2.jpg

Offline jordi

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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 05:59:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Why not do it like in Okinawa with a night and day periods in a single frame?

Ofcourse this would double the length of a single frame. 3 hours frames 1 1/2 hours each?

You may loose numbers at night but even so as long as you have the correct ratio of night fighters vrs bombers.

Jordi - Personally - too long for me - just my opinion

What's the map scale? Are the bombers/allies air starting?

BTW who is making the map? Or are you using an existing map?

If you a making a map keep in mind "Flakfestung Ruhr". Or as some allies called it "Happy Valley" and "Land of no return".

Jordi - A new custom map is being designed by the AH Terrain team. It will have England and the RUHR "Happy Valley " in it with the right mix of FLAK to make it live up to its namesake. It will also be designed to be used by the CT Arena and other Scenario uses.

On the TE forum I posted these links:

http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/gradnetzb.htm

http://wejones.ftdata.com/wejones/plaumap2.jpg


The terrain guys may have used that first link already !

Thanks !
« Last Edit: November 12, 2003, 06:03:02 PM by jordi »
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Offline Jester

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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2003, 07:21:55 AM »
PLEASE! YOU GOT TO HAVE some B-26's for a Diversionary Raid to throw the Krauts off! The 8th AF never launched the B-17's on a raid with out sending out all kinds of diversions.

Besides, our squad wants the B-26 slot.  :D
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Offline artik

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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2003, 07:31:28 AM »
Will there be base capture - or it would be based on Bombruns and Night interseptions only?

Will the icons be long for nightfights? You still do not have radar on Mossie and 110.

Will there be depends of some capabilities on destroyed targets - like in Kadesh - if Fuel Factory destroyed - it reduces fuel on all the fields to 100% or 75% like that?
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