Author Topic: NEXT AH Scenario - RURH  (Read 7090 times)

Offline jordi

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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2003, 08:43:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jester
PLEASE! YOU GOT TO HAVE some B-26's for a Diversionary Raid to throw the Krauts off! The 8th AF never launched the B-17's on a raid with out sending out all kinds of diversions.

Besides, our squad wants the B-26 slot.  :D


Sorry - we are doing a different Time Frame - 1943'ish not 1944'ish.

Most of the B-26's were operating in the MED not with the B17's of the 8th AF at that time.

My bad - by Late July '43 B-26's were in action along with the 8th Af (  VIII Air Support Command ). BUT the raids were about 5% the size of the B17 raids. To simulate this we would have to send 1 B26' for 20 B17's we send. Not enough to really work into the scenario.

Now if it were a 1944 "Ruhr Raiders" Scenario -d ifferent story.


You are more than welcome to hop in a B17 or a LANC and help out !
« Last Edit: November 15, 2003, 08:51:11 AM by jordi »
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Offline jordi

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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2003, 08:57:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by artik
Will there be base capture - or it would be based on Bombruns and Night interseptions only?

Jordi - No Capture - Just a determination on how well the Bombers did at the target factoring in lossed inflicted upon them by the LW.

Will the icons be long for nightfights? You still do not have radar on Mossie and 110.

Jordi - We will have 3rd country radar on I think for the LW Night Interceptors so they can be directed toward possible inbound flights of Bombers.
 

Will there be depends of some capabilities on destroyed targets - like in Kadesh - if Fuel Factory destroyed - it reduces fuel on all the fields to 100% or 75% like that?

Jordi - No real attrition like that at all.
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Offline mos

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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2003, 12:58:33 PM »
What, no P38 escorts?  They were the only ones keeping the bombers alive until the P51 could be delivered en masse.

;)

Offline jordi

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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2003, 09:38:19 PM »
Yes - There will be P38 escorts.

:)
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Offline Batz

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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2003, 10:26:22 PM »
The p38l is a later variant then the p51d and g10 and entered service the same time as the 262.

P-38L ... 7-44

Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Me 262 ... 7-44

Even the p47d11 is late for this event. Since we have no C or early d (d5) there’s really no choice.

However, if such a late variant as the p38l were to be included then pushing the whole event into 44 would be better that way, as the LW would have the correct planes. The AH g6 is the early version and we have no a6. The event already starts with earlier LW planes vs. later USAAF stuff.

If it were 44 you could include the p 38, p51, g10, d9, 262 etc....

The 1st battle of the Ruhr started on the 5th March 1943 and was to go on for five months until 25th July. I assumed this was the time frame that this event was planned around. If so the p38l certainly is a stretch.

The p47d11 vs. g6 and a5 vs. b17 is a good one and there is no need to add stretch into 44 for a few 38s.

At least in my opinion.

Offline jordi

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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2003, 05:54:17 AM »
All opinions are appreicated.
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Offline rshubert

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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2003, 04:01:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
The p38l is a later variant then the p51d and g10 and entered service the same time as the 262.

P-38L ... 7-44

Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Me 262 ... 7-44

Even the p47d11 is late for this event. Since we have no C or early d (d5) there’s really no choice.

However, if such a late variant as the p38l were to be included then pushing the whole event into 44 would be better that way, as the LW would have the correct planes. The AH g6 is the early version and we have no a6. The event already starts with earlier LW planes vs. later USAAF stuff.

If it were 44 you could include the p 38, p51, g10, d9, 262 etc....

The 1st battle of the Ruhr started on the 5th March 1943 and was to go on for five months until 25th July. I assumed this was the time frame that this event was planned around. If so the p38l certainly is a stretch.

The p47d11 vs. g6 and a5 vs. b17 is a good one and there is no need to add stretch into 44 for a few 38s.

At least in my opinion.


P38L is SLOWER than p38 F or G.  The big difference (other than reliability and dive flaps) was the ability to carry lots and lots of ordnance.  That would have no effect on the scenario.

The L is a viable substitute.

Offline Batz

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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2003, 04:52:29 PM »
You need check your numbers. The p38l in ah does 420 @ 25k. The numbers I have for late models Js are 414 @ 25k (practically the same as the L).

For the H I have 395.

In 1943 the H model or early J would be the model of choice for this event.

When I get home later I will post more accurate numbers. But anyway you look at it the F and G were not faster then the L.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2003, 08:23:19 AM »
Not sure where you get 3-44 for a 109G-10. 3-44 was the 190A-8 give or take a month.

109G-10 was delivered to combat units in October 1944 (sometimes listed as early fall) along with the 109K. The earliest 109G-14 (predates the G-10) squad was July of 1944. Prior to that its 109G-6s. Unless you are talking about some substitute type (dunno which), but then say so.

Late and early 109G-6. Different radio mast, wooden tail and "galland" canopy. Not sure what difference that makes. Not too mention the AH 109G-6 has the Drop Tank, 30mm, 20mm gondola and bomb option already included.

The P-38J-25 (June 44) and the P-38L were "better" mainly because of the boosted ailerons and dive flaps Shubie. They were also faster than the P-38H was. L would be too late for a 1943 setup. Too bad, we need Lightnings to fill out the early USAAF.

Night Ops. Its going to be a long frame with 2 seperate bomber missions going to the Rhur.

Mosquito VI from 5-43 with 418 RCAF. Night fighter and fighter-bomber.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 10:33:58 AM by Squire »
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Offline blackwitch

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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2003, 08:11:00 AM »
A couple of points, the L was faster (by~14MPH) than the G/H models  and ~20 MPH faster than the F.

However for this scenario the 2 P38 FG's, the 20th and 55th, didn't start operations until October/November 1943, a bit too late for this scenario.

Offline jordi

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« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2003, 08:48:48 AM »
Good eye !

Looks like they flew mostly in the Western MED or PAC till Oct.

Thanks for the Heads up.
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Offline EsmeNhaMaire

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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2003, 07:26:52 PM »
And I've read the lot thus far. Hmmnn...

In no particular order...

Bomb-dropping: carpet-bombing is IMO the way to go, for reasons eloquently and accurately put above.  Ensure you have a couple of good bombardiers per formation (at least one backup in case the master bombardier dies, discos or otherwise becomes unable to do the job), and have everyone else drop when the lead bombardier does. That means that to ensure maximal bombs on target area, the planes in the formation really do need to fly in formation.   Only drawback here is lack of Otto gunnery meaning that ideally each buff trio should have a player gunner aboard as well.

Fighter types - kill anyone tying to insist on planes that didnt enter until later than this scenario is actually supposed to be. Besides, REAL fighter pilots can get kills armed with a revolver in a Tiger Moth, only wimps need the Allied/Axis uberplanes to get kills, right? ;-)

Night flying. Night combat was a fact of WW2. Any attempt to portray the bulk of the RAF bombing effort that doesnt involve night flying is ridiculous. Any attempt to simply ignore the RAF effort is ridiculous. If you don't like flying at night, then just don't do it!  If you're Allied you could man the guns for a bomber pilot; if you're Axis you could man the radar.

From game (only) experience, the night in AH is pathetically bright, and once it's into full night is much the same as full daylight but with the sky painted black, so far as I can tell. But that's flying with a full moon all the time for you, I suppose.  Which both the RAF and LW often AVOIDED doing because it made life more dangerous for the bomber crews.  No, I don;t mess with the gamma. And I've flown WB2 "2D" at night (that's the untextured version) and in that the night was really pitch black, you could barely see the ground at all from altitude. It took a little more effort and patience to land safely, and you might have to orbit around a bit trying to find the target if it wasnt already on fire - juts like in real life. It was not particularly difficult, and flying at the darkest AH can currently do is easy by comparison.   And I'm just a girly!   ;-)

Kill all fighter dweebs arguing over a few mph difference in speed when machines in service with worn engines and airframes seldom met those specs anyway, while we're at it... ;-)

Frames part 1 - I'd happily have it that PTO games are held mostly at US-friendly times and ETO games mostly at Euro-friendly times.  Some argue that because most players currently are American that we should cater mostly for them. But if you do that too much, you just alienate folks from other parts of the world, reducing their percentage in the player base, etc. etc.  Hold games of particular interest to Europeans at Euro-friendly times, you might just help attract (or at leat keep) more Europeans. Which isnt to say that no Europeans are interested in PTO or Americans in ETO, of course, but I hope you get my point...

Frames, part 2 - in order to plan buff raids properly, Batz is perfectly correct that a sufficient amount of between-frame time is necessary.  In RL where the planners could all be around one planning table, this might possibly have been a fairly rapid peration. Oddly, trying to do the same thing across the internet is slower, because only one person is working on an initial plan, for review by another, and the plans need to do a certain amount of going back and forth until they can be finalised. Much more effort that putting pencil marks on paper and shoving em back and forth across a table.

Frames part 3 - allowance has to be made for everyone - especially those involved in planning - having a life outside AH (no, honestly! :-} ).  Having been in a situation where, by oversight, I was kind of expected to put my life on hold for an entire weekend for several weekends running, I can say that this is NOT a good thing to expect of anyone.  Hence avoiding clashes with other games, and frame timing and length issues.

Personally, I dont mind early Saturday morning starts, but then I dont have any family to consider.  I  HAVE done early morning Mondays, but only for a long-running series of unit-based games (in Another Place, as they say in Parliament) which were so much to my liking that I felt it was worth going to bed early, getting up at 1am flying for three hours, gopin to bed again then getting up at 7am to go to work.  I am not prepared to do the like for a one-off game unless the details look vey, very much to my liking.

Finally... kill everyone wanting to fly B17s at 30,0000ft whilst attempting individual precision bombing all the damned time, whilst we're at it!  Or at least, chuck a decent amount of cloud over the target area now and then, just to see how they cope...

Esme (who recalls reading about  one P38 pilot saying he didnt fly over 15,000ft the entire time he was in Europe.)

(chuckle... ) :-)

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2003, 01:55:26 PM »
Since it appears this will be all weekend frames, I'm screwed on flying it, but it looks like it could be great fun.

Couple of things I'm wondering about.

If I'm flying Luftwaffe, the job first is to get the TBolts to dump tanks and cut down thier range.  Are LW flying out of France as well as Germany?

The reason I ask is I dug out the Spit pilot's logbook I have and in July-August of 43 the missions they were flying were escorting B26s and other mediums of the RAF to the airfields in France to keep them busy while the 4 engined guys were going over the top to Germany.  Just from this one guys logbook from one RAF Spit squadron, he covered B26s 14 times from July through August 43 and these were formations of 36 or 72 Marauders.  This doesn't include the the escorts he flew of Mossies, Venturas, RAF Mitchells and Bostons either, which were also flying the same missions.  (This be the 2 TAF stuff I saw someone ask about)  These were all raids on airfields at St.Omar, Poix, Abbeville etc too.


If the LW guys were kept busy in France it kept those P47 Escorts from having to engage early and losing thier fuel.

The Spits were also taking the 17s part of the way in and bringing them out too, essentially handing off to the P47s going further.

Somehow the Allied guys have to have a chance to escort the buffs to a realistic range  without the LW guys being able to hit them so early that the fighter escort becomes a non factor.

If I'm LW CO and I see a chance to get the fighter escort out of the game fast, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  And it doesn't take many LW fighters to force the issue on dropping tanks or burning off thier fuel

Wish I could fly it :)

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Offline jordi

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« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2003, 02:19:28 PM »
We are not doing any secondary / diversionary raids.

Depending on how many people register will let us know how spread out to place the LW Operational fields.

Not sure if we will do any SPIT Escorts or not at this point. MIGHT be a job for dead pilots to assume if we can come up with an acceptable rule and or parameteres.

Somehow the Allied guys have to have a chance to escort the buffs to a realistic range without the LW guys being able to hit them so early that the fighter escort becomes a non factor.

That will be the job of the ALLIED CO - how best to get as amny fighters as dep as possible.

Sorry you can not make it.

Thanks,
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2003, 12:04:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
We are not doing any secondary / diversionary raids.

Depending on how many people register will let us know how spread out to place the LW Operational fields.

Not sure if we will do any SPIT Escorts or not at this point. MIGHT be a job for dead pilots to assume if we can come up with an acceptable rule and or parameteres.

Somehow the Allied guys have to have a chance to escort the buffs to a realistic range without the LW guys being able to hit them so early that the fighter escort becomes a non factor.

That will be the job of the ALLIED CO - how best to get as amny fighters as dep as possible.

Sorry you can not make it.

Thanks,


So LW fighters can up from French bases to hit the incoming raids?  That's how you get the Allied Fighters to lose thier fuel.  Seems like we've been down that road before in another sim in another day and time :)

Regardless of the route, if there is no way to distract, divert or otherwise engage the early fighters as was done for real, the Allied escorts are gonna be long gone early for lack of fuel.

If the LW only goes from German bases, that might compensate some, but I'll bet you'll have some ticked off escort pilots, even with drop tanks :)

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TFT Dieppe 1942