Author Topic: Iraq, from invasion to date  (Read 4527 times)

Offline Mini D

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2003, 01:31:57 PM »
LOL!

I like the analogy toad:

Being afraid your thumb will stink is not a good reason for leaving it in your ass.

MiniD

Offline Toad

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2003, 02:02:32 PM »
I think the legions of the African dead would dispute those who claim to be "doing something".

Maybe the food warehouse is being guarded while the slaughter goes on around the corner.. out of sight, where no one needs to feel responsible.

Face it, when there's wholesale bloodshed, the UN doesn't get involved. Yet when it comes time to finally stop the bloodshed, all eyes turn to.......

Yeah, I think you can fill in the blank.

Stinky thumbs and all.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2003, 02:12:35 PM »
Didn't say we'd been to Africa to do anything yet.

Oh, we went along with some UN stuff over there, like Somalia, but those always turn out the same don't they?

When nicely asked to stop killing each other, folks don't seem to listen. And, of course, that's where UN "coercion" ends; I mean, heck, if they won't stop when asked nicely...well, what can you do?

However, you can look at the former Yugoslavia and see what it took to get the outright slaughter stopped. Of course, it wasn't the UN.. it was NATO. Kinda.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline maslo

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Re: Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2003, 02:25:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort


... teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

... doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

... the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to
Iraq's children.


... foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other
government spies.


... the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a
Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and
for peace.

... Iraq is free.

God Bless you all. Have a great Holiday.

Semper Fidelis,

CO


lol
1. 12 -25x bigger salary... umm well ... how many times did prices grow ?

2. 22 mill of vaccinations for children ?
well there live about 21 mil people before war... how many of these 22 mill end up in iraq stocks ?

3. people are free to came and go ? .. hehe if it will be same come and go as you have in US now, its realy golden time now :)

4. how exactly is Bush administration connected with iranian woman, whitch got Nobell price ?


5. to not be able to chose from all developers all over the world, its not freedom, nor free market



any its quite cool that they have all dishes ... they can wash bush on TV instead of Sadam on the walls..... and whats much better, they gonna pay for that



im sorry but i never ever saw any country under occupation, whitch has been free

edit.: and best thing to do is to speak about god in iraqi with m16 in hands :D
« Last Edit: December 17, 2003, 02:36:00 PM by maslo »

Offline Elfie

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Re: Re: Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2003, 03:20:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by maslo
lol
1. 12 -25x bigger salary... umm well ... how many times did prices grow ?

2. 22 mill of vaccinations for children ?
well there live about 21 mil people before war... how many of these 22 mill end up in iraq stocks ?

3. people are free to came and go ? .. hehe if it will be same come and go as you have in US now, its realy golden time now :)

4. how exactly is Bush administration connected with iranian woman, whitch got Nobell price ?


5. to not be able to chose from all developers all over the world, its not freedom, nor free market

any its quite cool that they have all dishes ... they can wash bush on TV instead of Sadam on the walls..... and whats much better, they gonna pay for that



im sorry but i never ever saw any country under occupation, whitch has been free

edit.: and best thing to do is to speak about god in iraqi with m16 in hands :D



My 3 month old daughter has had multiple vaccinations already. She will get more as she gets older also. So 22 million vaccinations for Iraq's children is not unrealistic.

The occupation in Iraq will end. When will it end? I don't think anyone knows an exact timetable yet, however progress is being made towards that end.
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Offline wklink

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2003, 03:29:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
If you consider the Shiite (got it right this time) uprising incident a genocide you're diluting the meaning of the word. That would be an affront to those people that have actually been victims of genocide, for instance the Jews, Cambodians, Rwandans and countless other Africans. To compare an armed uprising to the systematic murder of millions is offensive in the extreme.



Umm, no offense but this logical thought pattern could be used to justify a lot of things.  The Native American population was within the US borders (just like the Shiites), they were a repressed section of the population that didn't like the 'leadership' in place (just like the Shiites), and they fought back (just like the Shiites).  In the end they were slaughtered, their culture was signficantly marginalized and destroyed.  I don' t know too many Americans these days that look upon what we did to the Native American population with a lot of pride.  I consider it one of our most shameful periods.


I guess that wasn't genocide according to your definition.  I consider it according to mine.
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Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2003, 03:35:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I'm not refuting that attrocities might (and probably were) committed by the Iraqis. But for a trial against Hussein you would need to prove them. Probably not a problem, but still.
[/b] Your point...whatever it was..has been lost several posts ago. What remains is a norwegian ex UN guy, fighting with teeth and claws to defend Saddam Hussain against accusations of mass murder and atrocities.

A person who fully seriously is saying stuff like

Basrah after 91-war: Armed uprising quelled by the Iraqi army. Legal action acording to international law, even the US National Guard has used lethal force against much less armed and violent crowd, to say nothing of an armed uprising.


What you are defending here, was exactly the same action I was quoting eye witness reports from, and survivers tales.

Take a look at what you are defending
Quote

Before they brought these people, they would bring a bulldozer to dig holes. Military members surrounded the area so no one would come near the place. When they brought the people, they pushed them into the holes with their hands tied and their eyes covered. When they pushed them into the holes, they would start shooting massively. Afterwards, they would bring the bulldozers to bury the people. Then the criminals would prepare for the second and third groups [of victims.] This operation lasted from March 7 until April 6, 1991.

...

When they started taking us off the bus, some of us began reciting the shahada [Muslim declaration of faith]. My mother told me, “Repeat the shahada, because we are about to die.” I heard the shouting of the children. We grabbed each other’s hands—me, my mother, my cousin, and my uncle. They pulled us, we were all together.

They threw us into the dug-out grave. When I fell down, there were so many bodies underneath me. I layed down on top of them. They started to shoot on us.

There were two [groups of] men. One was taking the people off the bus, and others were shooting at people in the hole.

One of them pulled at my clothes, and said “That one isn’t dead, shoot him.” They shot again, but still I was not shot.


These quotes could be taken from Babi Jar in 1941, but this time they come from the Basrah region in 1991. And your reaction?

Armed uprising quelled by the Iraqi army. Legal action acording to international law


I dont know if you realize that you have lost all credibility here, nor do I know if you care. But right now, you are on the exact same moral level as someone trying to apologize the Nazi massacres of Jews and civilians because there were partisans attacking German supply lines. Its just disgusting, and you should take a 5 minute break and think about what exactly it is you are saying.

Quote

http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/israel.html

Its a human rights watch report. (Nice of you to "legitimize" HRW as a "reliable" source for future discussions on the Israeli/Palestine issue).
[/b]
I'll ask you again. Give me some examples with sources of Israeli soldiers machine gunning palestinian civilians and then throwing them into mass graves.

Because this:

Within three weeks, more than 120 Palestinians were killed and over 4,800 injured in clashes with Israeli security forces that began on September 29. Most of the deaths were the result of excessive, and often indiscriminate, use of lethal force by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers, police, and border police against unarmed civilian demonstrators, including children.


is not even remotely similar to this:
When they brought the people, they pushed them into the holes with their hands tied and their eyes covered. When they pushed them into the holes, they would start shooting massively. Afterwards, they would bring the bulldozers to bury the people.


I dont expect you to understand that, like I said, you have kinda lost alot of credibility here.

Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2003, 04:11:20 PM »
Halabja deserves its own post.

Since GS is clearly trying to add his revisionist touch to this story, I felt it would be important to do a "real" post here.


http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL.htm

The part on Halabja:

Quote

The Iraqi counterattack began in the mid-morning of March 16, with conventional airstrikes and artillery shelling from the town of Sayed Sadeq to the north. Most families in Halabja had built primitive air-raid shelters near their homes. Some crowded into these, others into the government shelters, following the standard air-raid drills they had been taught since the beginning of the Iran-Iraq War in 1980. The first wave of air strikes appears to have included the use of napalm or phosphorus. "It was different from the other bombs," according to one witness. "There was a huge sound, a huge flame and it had very destructive ability. If you touched one part of your body that had been burned, your hand burned also. It caused things to catch fire." The raids continued unabated for several hours. "It was not just one raid, so you could stop and breathe before another raid started. It was just continuous planes, coming and coming. Six planes would finish and another six would come."28

Those outside in the streets could see clearly that these were Iraqi, not Iranian aircraft, since they flew low enough for their markings to be legible. In the afternoon, at about 3:00, those who remained in the shelters became aware of an unusual smell. Like the villagers in the Balisan Valley the previous spring, they compared it most often to sweet apples, or to perfume, or cucumbers, although one man says that it smelled "very bad, like snake poison." No one needed to be told what the smell was.

The attack appeared to be concentrated in the northern sector of the city, well away from its military bases--although these, by now, had been abandoned. In the shelters, there was immediate panic and claustrophobia. Some tried to plug the cracks around the entrance with damp towels, or pressed wet cloths to their faces, or set fires. But in the end they had no alternative but to emerge into the streets. It wasgrowing dark and there were no streetlights; the power had been knocked out the day before by artillery fire. In the dim light, the people of Halabja could see nightmarish scenes. Dead bodies--human and animal--littered the streets, huddled in doorways, slumped over the steering wheels of their cars. Survivors stumbled around, laughing hysterically, before collapsing. Iranian soldiers flitted through the darkened streets, dressed in protective clothing, their faces concealed by gas masks. Those who fled could barely see, and felt a sensation "like needles in the eyes." Their urine was streaked with blood.29



What do the Iraqis themselves say? This is from an Iraqi witness:
Quote

"ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID in his role as head of the Ba'ath Northern Command...held a meeting with those pilots who would undertake the mission. After the meeting ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID returned to the area HQ of the 1st Corps...ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID ordered the pilots to launch a chemical strike on the area of Halabja."

 
ALI HASSAN AL-MAJID  is perhaps better known under his English nickname "Chemical Ali". This quote is from the material being gathered for the upcoming trials in Iraq against the old regime.

So...so far we have a Human Rights Watch report, we have Iranian and Iraqi witnesses...but we also have...

ta taaa

Kurdhis eye witnesses:

Hewa, a university student:
Survived by covering his face with a wet cloth and taking to the mountains around the city. He says that Iraqi warplanes followed, dropping more chemical bombs. "I got some gas in my eyes and had trouble breathing. You always wanted to vomit and when you did, the vomit was green.15 He says he passed "hundreds" of dead bodies. Those around him died in a number of ways, suggesting a combination of toxic chemicals. Some "just dropped dead." Others "died of laughing." Others took a few minutes to die, first "burning and blistering" or "coughing up green vomit." Journalists noted that the lips of many corpses had turned blue.

Unknown:
No Pasdaran nor Peshmargan were killed. The Iranian soldiers had left on the day before or on the morning of the massacre. The Peshmargan continued to surround the city. Some had gas masks.

We ran over to the basement on the opposite side of the street to take cover. Half an hour later the Iraqi planes came back from all directions - there must have been at least twenty of them, believe me - and in a few minutes Halabja was in ruins. Shortly afterwards we smelt gas. It was just like the smell of garlic. Some of us ran to get some water and we gave the others wet towels and clothes to put over their faces.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2003, 04:14:41 PM by Hortlund »

Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2003, 04:23:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
So the town was defended by Iranians and Kurdish militia in contrast to what you first posted:
[/b]
No, the Iranians had left the town the day before. Kurdish militia was positioned outside the town in more tactical locations (hills presumably).
Quote

So Stephen C. Pelletiere was right when he concluded:

No, you obviously did not read what I wrote in my post. There are several eye-witnessess who saw Iraqi aircraft drop the gas bombs. But not only that, there are Iraqi witnessess who testify that Chemical Ali gave the order to bomb Halabja with gas.

Against that you come up with some retarded quote by Stephen C. Pelletiere who claims to have read a classified report that blames the Iranians...

Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2003, 04:36:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Ok so you dismiss the findings of the CHIEF political analyst on IRAQ during the IRAN-IRAQ WAR, and claim that the town was NOT a frontline town in the war, and that the Iranians and Kurds did NOT defend the town, and that the presumed Iraqi chemical attack was aimed at the Kurdish civilian population and NOT the hostile forces fighting in the area.

Ok, I think I'll leave it at that. Good night.


Do that. And reconsider your position.

And not only is your parting "analysis" off on 4 points out of 5, you are attempting in your parting shot to win the argument with some über-lame "my source was the chief political anlysist"-argument.

Let me just say this: MY sources in that post SAW the aircrafts who dropped the bombs...or they were present when Chemical Ali ORDERED the gas bombings...Do you think your chief political analysist saw those planes too? Or do you think he was present as those orders were given?

Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2003, 04:55:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz

Was the town a "frontline town"? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes
Quote

Was the town a contested area? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes (and I dont think I have said no on that one before)
Quote

Was the town defended by the Iranians and/or Kurdish militia? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
Yes and No. The town was defended by Kurdish militia, but these troops were positioned outside the town. In the town itself there were no military troops.
Quote

If the Iraqis counterattack like your eyewitness said, would it not be logical that the town must be occupied by hostile forces for the Iraqis to COUNTERATTACK? Yes or no. You have claimed "no" earlier.
[/b]
The Iranians was in the middle of an offensive in the region. The previous days had seen Iraqi positions fall east of Halabja. Two days before the gas attack, the town fell to the Iranians. The Iranians withdrew from the town the next day in preparation for the Iraqi counterattack (presumably seeking more easily defended terrain to the east). Meanwhile Kurdish militia had been operating in the area all along, and they remained in their positions outside the town in the surrounding hills.  I dont know if that is a yes or no though.
Quote

Do you believe that the Iraqi chemical attack (assuming it was the Iraqis) was aimed at the civilian population rather than the hostile forces in that area (whom were also using chemical weapons)? Yes or no. You have claimed "yes" earlier.

Yes.

If the Iraqi gas attack was part of any kind of military counterattack operation, it should have been followed by an advance of ground forces. As it was, the Iraqis pulled back from Halubja, allowing the Iranians to capture it. Then Iraq plastered Halubja with gas. Then nothing happened for several weeks. Then the Iraqis launched a conventional counterattack, recapturing the city.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2003, 05:19:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Immediately occupying territory you have saturated with deadly chemicals is rarely a good military decision.

Wasting expensive WMD on civilians you can easily slaughter later if you so wished instead of using it on the hostile forces currently on the offensive seems like a very unsound strategy.

Once again we must agree to disagree. Good night (finally).


Some chemical agents persist for long periods of time, others disipate rather quickly. Also if your troops have chemcial suits, occupying territory you have just slammed with chemical weapons is no problem at all.

*If* the chemical weapons were aimed at the civilians, what better cover than the *fog of war*. Later you could simply claim you thought your enemy was in the town.

The Shiite deaths Hortlund is pointing to are CIVILIAN deaths, not the deaths of rebels. After the Shiite uprising was put down, thousands of CIVILIANS were murdered.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2003, 10:50:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
When Saddam goes on trial, and the world sees the atrocities that he's committed, I want you to ask yourself one question: "Was it worth the cost of money to prevent yet more mass graves?"

Let your conscience speak for you at that time.


The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.

Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?

Offline AKIron

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2003, 11:49:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.

Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?


He'll be tried in Iraq. The issues won't be about what you are insinuating the US has done. They'll be about about the many men, women, and children he murdered and tortured in his own country and the crimes he commited against his neighbors.
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Offline Hortlund

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Iraq, from invasion to date
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2003, 01:37:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The unfortunate thing about trials is that both sides get to present evidence.
I wonder is Sadam will play his "go ahead and invade Kuwait" tape?
[/b]
You think he was carrying it with him in that hole?
Quote

I wonder is he will have testimony on counter insurgency aid and training that was provided by US military advisors?
I wonder if he will provide testimony on US supplies and insturctions on the use of chemical weapons?
I wonder is he will show footage of acts taken against the Iraqi resistance? Detention without trial of people in gauntanimo? State assasinations by Isreal, Lebanese car bombings by US goverment officials. Iranian air liners shot down in Iranian air space by US navy cruisers. etc etc etc.
[/b]
He will proably say alot of things...just like he has in the past. Lies naturally, but people like you will fall over themselves in their attempts to use his lies to tarnish the US. "Saddam said this or that...clearly the US is the devil".

Why on earth would he start yapping about Iranian airliners shot down by US cruisers? In what way would that be relevant in the trial against Saddam Hussein? Or the Israeli assassinations? Or the "Lebanese car bombings"? or Gitmo?

"Yes, your honor, I know Im being accused of crimes against humanity here...but in 1985, the US blew up a CAR..in LEBANON..clearly Im innocent."  
Quote

It wouldnt exaclty be nueremburg. There is lots of dirt to go arround in the world even sorting out the truth from the lies that he would tell could be pretty confusing for some of the white hat guys in the world.

Wonder if he can afford OJs lawyers?

No, actually its quite easy to spot his lies. What WILL be confusing though, is how you guys will take his word for gospel. Like you always do when someone says something bad about Bush or the US.

Links between Al-Q and Iraq? I want at least twelve eye-witnesses who saw Atta and Saddam standing bent over a map pointing at the WTC. But these witnessess has to be approved by us, so we can make sure they are not lying. They can not have any criminal record

Link between Haliburton and Bush? I heard some guy say on teh TV that after his presidency, Bush would be elected CO of Haliburton if they got the Iraqi contracts...and THEY GOT THE CONTRACTS..clearly it is true! Besides 9-11 was staged by Bush and the neocons so they could invade Afghanistan and build a pipeline...and it was a cruise missle that hit the Pentagon, and the airliner that hit WTC was shooting rockets from its wings before it crashed. Some French guy says it is so! What more evidence could you want.