Author Topic: What is the Deal with all this US stuff?  (Read 14598 times)

Offline Toad

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #150 on: September 03, 2001, 07:28:00 PM »
OK, class. Your assignment is to study (via the Internet) International Law/The Law of War, then study "Just War". Lastly, study the state of the US military and military industry in 1939. Pay particular attention to force sizes and equipment available. Do some research into Congressional budgetary authorizations for the military in the 19-38-1940 period. Finally, research the makeup of the US population around 1939 with respect to "ethnic" origins, ie: what percentage of Germans, Irish, Italians, English, etc., etc., made up the population. Determine if this mix of groups constituted an overwhelming majority with respect to going to war against any particular nation in Europe.

Then, let's meet in 2 weeks in the O'Club and start this discussion over again. '
0
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline CJ

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #151 on: September 03, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
Our units are bigger than your units... they penetrate farther, they carry a bigger load and have more endurance too!

 ;)

CJ

Offline Aaron_G_T

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2001, 05:49:00 AM »
lazs:

Last time I did any sort of calculations
the distance from the continental USA to
Japan was less than that from the UK.

Yes the UK did have large economic interests
in the Pacific, but the UK is rather smaller
in population than the USA, so it isn't a
great surprise that the contribution in
forces was smaller given the relative
difference in size of population and the
relative differences in distances. Also the
UK had been fighting a war of possible
national survival for more than two years
before the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbour,
the Philipines, and places such as Singapore,
so the UK was already somewhat battle weary.
Never mind the difference in the economic
cycle the USA and the UK were in.

Offline Aaron_G_T

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2001, 05:52:00 AM »
Lazs writes:
"Hey.. I don't begrudge englands foot dragging and miniscule effort late in the war."

It wasn't any later than that of the USA
in the pacific. The attacks came in late
1941/early 1942 for all concerned. The UK
gave a smaller contribution that the USA
which is fair enough given a smaller
population, but it was pretty reasonable
given the size of the population and the
fact that the UK had been fighting a rather
more urgent war for 2 1/2 years. In
Europe it wasn't until later in 1944 that
the US forces eclipsed those of the commonwealth in numbers as commonwealth
troops were more easily deployed close to
home.

Offline Aaron_G_T

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2001, 05:54:00 AM »
lazs writes:
"Where was all the british help for the russians?"

I presume you mean the thousands that died
on the Arctic convoys from the UK to the USSR?

Offline lazs1

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2001, 08:22:00 AM »
aaron....Ah... so convoys are enough help if they are brit but not if they are U.S.?

Are you sure that the total U.S. forces against the axis did not exceed those of the british until '44?   I don't believe that is correct.
lazs

Offline hazed-

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2001, 10:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs1:

But here's the point.   What would you have had us done and at what point?   Keeping in mind that we were not ready for any war and the large distances involved.   I'd say that things worked out about as well as they could have.  

lazs
Laz this was never a discussion on whether it was possible at hte time it was me asking you whether you agreed with what happened.
Laz im JUST talking about my moral standpoint on the start of the war.So many killed, so much evil that we cant fail to see with ourpresent hindsight, that the Nazis were evil beyond belief.Of course the war happened the way it did.It was never going to be any different but that doesnt change the fact that it was so wrong not to act against the Nazis.If hitler had ENOUGH oppersition WHO knows what could have been avoided? who knows how long he would have remained in power? I know it had to be done legally you dumb yanks! (     :)) but IF ONLY we had stopped him in those early years YOU SEE????????????
 
Im no politition and i dont have the answers for stopping the largest war the world has ever known! and its a bit of a piss take that you ask me to come up with one
but what if America had clearly stated in the period of the phoney war that they would back england/france/holland  with all its military might if germany invaded any of its neighbours? would hitler have done it? or would he have turned his attentions east? who knows? maybe we would have got rid of hitler and stalin in one bloody stroke.I Was angered by your dismissal of my countries contribution to the war.I was angered by your talk of how because you wanted isolation at the time it wasnt your war.You again angered me when you talk of britain dragging its feet in the pacific.Tell that to the men of the japanese POW camps.
I was hoping to see a better answer from americas new generation.Perhaps an admission that YOU think it would have been better for history if you had helped sooner or that you thought moraly that you wished something more had been done earlier at least.Instead you speal off what we are all aware of IE the reasons you didnt get involved.and then something i wasnt aware of,that you consider Europe a cesspool of warmongers.You mention why havent Britain done anything about the wars/murders today? Id like to know too.I suspect money mate!! LIKE I STATED RIGHT AT THE START.OIL.Im not saying anyone had or has the right policy toward war.And i dont know how to change it for the better.ill say it again READ what i was saying to you.You go on to insult what we accomplished and sacrificed, you dismiss what they(MY grandparents included) did for us(all people in the world) and try to take the credit for the US alone.You insult every non US soldier and civilian that died.
you say i am talking from a childish moral standpoint? I look at you in disgust mate.

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

Offline hazed-

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2001, 10:35:00 PM »
GOD at the pearly gates:

ok toad you've performed a few sins in yer time havent you? well whats your excuse?

Toad: fumbleing for his legal document
'erm they were not sins, they were not even morally wrong god!, I have this document that states quite clearly i was in no position to do it differently and therefore taking the moral high ground is according to my mate laz childish.'

GOD: <hits the trap door button>

_____________________________ ________________


lets hope he does the same for the 'causus belli' author  :)

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

Offline Mathman

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #158 on: September 05, 2001, 01:17:00 AM »
Hazed,

You continually state that you understand why the United States had an isolationist viewpoint during the 30s-early 40s.  Good, then understand it is pointless and futile to look back and say "Gee, you guys are acting like self-interested fools who don't care that many innocents were dying at the hands of an evil empire."  Should we have become embroiled in a foreign war, one that was similar to one that cost many Americans their lives for what what reason nobody at the time could really understand?  Maybe, hell even probably, on purely moralistic grounds.  The thing is, wars are fought because of national interests by every country taking part in the fighting.  Yes, the US had economic interests in Europe.  The issue is did those interests outweigh those that were taking place at home?  No, they did not.  Whether you, with your 20/20 hindight and superior moral views, can understand that, is what the problem is.  Yes, many innocents were dying.  Would more have survived if the US had become involved earlier than 1941-42?  There is absolutely nobody in the world, alive or dead, that can give an answer to that.  Who knows what cities would have been bombed, how many more or less civilians would have died, or how many more or less soldiers, from both sides, would not have lost their lives?  You can't say, and neither can I.

The only thing that you can possibly say is that if the US had vowed to enter the war if Poland was invaded, maybe Hitler would have not started the war in 39.  Maybe he would have waited until 45, when they had a working A-Bomb and a long range bomber to deliver it, to start the shooting.  Maybe he would have just given up his quest for a Nazi controlled Europe.  You seem to be bright enough to understand that a megalomaniac like Hitler would NOT have done that.

How about I pose a question or two to you concerning the UK and their action, or lack thereof, with respect to Hitler and Germany.  I may be mistaken, but didn't England have a similar pact with Czechoslovakia that it had with Poland?  Why didn't they help out the Czechs when Hitler took their country?  Also, I seem to recall that there was some agreement with Hitler that some PM from England made in Munich?  Chamberlin or something like that?  Hmmm, seems to me that England made some bad choices, immoral ones even, just like the US did.

Oh well, no matter what I, or anyone else says, your moral high ground can't be budged.  Good for you, hope your glass house doesn't have to last through a big hail storm.  I would hate to see it come crashing down around you.

Offline Sleeper

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #159 on: September 05, 2001, 05:22:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs1:
If the U.S. were invaded in the 40's.... Invaded by who? Mexico? Heehee  Yes.... We would have "appreciated" hazed coming over on a volunteer basis but I'm sure we woulda got plenty of canadians.   They are right next door ya know and they speak american and everything. I think you'll find that the language Canadians speak is either French or English  

I still find your government repressive and anal
LMAO! This coming from a guy who's countrymen are so worried about government oppression that they feel the need to arm themselves to the teeth! hehe but the people are great they would make great U.S. citizens (and do) if they were not allowed to vote for about the first ten years or so till they got used to freedom. This guy has got to be joking right? Jeez!   That huge effort you see being comemerated at duxford might not have happened if we had gotten in too early. Err, OK mate, like US was in any postion to do anything militarily in 1939? Hehehe   :D



I suggest you finish grade school Lazs1 before attempting to engage in any kind of historical debate. Your ignorance of history and the world outside of the the USA is apparent to anyone with half a brain cell. Furthermore, your jingoistic comments about Europe/Uk make your more educated and mature
countrymen look bad by association.

Have a nice day   :p

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Sleeper ]

Offline Aaron_G_T

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2001, 05:45:00 AM »
lazs:

yes, the US ground forces did not exceed the COMMONWEALTH (not BRITISH but COMMONWEALTH)
forces in Europe until D-Day or shortly
thereafter.

With regard to the Russian convoys (a)
I don't really understand what you mean and
(b) it seems offensive to the memory of the
members of the British Merchant Navy who died
in terrible conditions in the Arctic running
what supplies could be spared to the USSR.

Offline Nashwan

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2001, 01:54:00 PM »
Lazs, the difference with the convoys is that Britain started aid to Russia immediately Gemany attacked them. US didn't get involved in supporting the UK with convoys or even credit until early-mid 41.

Offline AKSWulfe

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »
Well Hazed, you can't rewrite history by second guessing what each nation did back then.

Sure it's easy to tell what to do now that we have 60 years worth of reading about it from all sides, back then though air war was a completely new idea (one world war fought with it in it, the second one almost revolved around it) and all of the new technologies.

We can second guess all we want, but I find it ironic you attack the USA for not entering the war earlier (we had no reason- thus we could not join it without being guilty of breaking acts of war) yet you fly here with this moniker:

"Hazed
9./JG54"

Don't get mad at the US for not joining early, be mad at the Japanese for attacking us late.
-SW

Offline Hooligan

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
Nashwan:

The difference in the convoys is that the US helped the British 6 months BEFORE the US was a combatant, as opposed to the British convoys which only started after Britain had been in the war 2 years  :).

Hooligan

Offline lazs1

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What is the Deal with all this US stuff?
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »
so... hazed thinks we should have all revolted and declared war or that the government shulda forced us to go to war even tho we had nothing to go to war with?

You dismiss your dismal performance in the pacific with the excuse that it was so far away  yet blame the U.S for not doing more when both fronts were thousands of miles away across oceans?

you praise the effort of british merchant seamen supplying russia yet dismiss the larger effort (with larger losses) of U.S. seamen in WWII who were not even involved in a declared war?

Morality?   what a pompous hypocrite..  Japan was every bit as evil as germany and maybe even more so....  Didn't see the brits dropping everything to help the koreans and chinnese... if i were in the armed forces in WWII, especially in the air core, I would most likely volunteer for the action but.... if I were trying to feed my half starved family after a long hard depression or driving my worn out model T out of the southwest dust bowl..... I might not be quite so interested in jumping right into another european  cesspool of sensless slaughter like we had seen in WWI...  And what of the "phony war"?   6-8 months of foot dragging to gear up for a fite that was next door???  And we are blamed becaus it took us a couple of years to mount a much greater and meaningful effort thousands of miles away?

disgust, no respect?   who gives a toejam.   I sure don't want to hear about it tho from a guy playing at being a little LW nazi boy.
lazs