Author Topic: Defensive moves for less E situations? (Read 2023 times)

lasersailor184 · « **on:** January 14, 2004, 05:56:15 PM »

Most of the time I get in a fight, i'm slow, gaining altitude, and at a low altitude.

Well, I don't get in a fight, I just make it a little more difficult for me to get shot down.

But anyway, what are some defensive moves for these situations?

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:15:01 PM »

Punisher
what plane are you refering to? what speed would you say your at? low alt as in 1k , 2k , 5k?

When low and slow and have enemy in on you, go nose to nose merge, this will make him either have to climb after merge(if he don't HO you) or at least reverse causing him to slow down and allowing you time to gain more alt or speed, if he comes in from high 6 you can rollout / snaproll/ barrel roll and make him miss/overshoot and if you quick enough possibly give you a quick snapshot at him

also if he comes in from behind the 3/9 line with you slower if you can make him miss the first attack you have a good chance at setting him up for a scissors if he is unknowledge able enough to fall for it, with you being slower you will be able to stay inside each cutback he makes giving you mulitply shots each time he crosses your guns!

main thing is to remember to maintain your Speed/E and grab more each pass he makes while trying to get him to bleed off his energy

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:17:21 PM »

I'm flying the p51b.

Should I nose over to try to get more speed to maneauver?

Roscoroo · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:20:00 PM »

have you practiced co-alt merges yet ???
when i see a con the 1st thing i ussually do is level off and build up E (speed) if your still in a climb you are placing yourself at a greater disadvantage . if you catch me in the game just ask and ill help ya out . or ask one of the other trainers if you see them in the TA to help teach ya merges . it will help alot .

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:28:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm flying the p51b.

Should I nose over to try to get more speed to maneauver?

First , I would take the P51B up in the TA or offline and wrench it out, by this I mean learn everything you can do with it on each end of its flight envelope, what can you do at high speed right at before blackout/compressing and then learn everything it can and can't do at the other end at stall.
Once you learned the capabilitys of this bird thru out the envelope you will have a broader knowledge of what you can and can not do.

I for one make it a necassary point to know what each plane I fly can and can't do at its stallpoint. because there are times that for some unforsaken reason you will be low slow and have a enemy trying to kill ya off.

learn when to use flaps to help you turn better and when to bring em in to reduce drag, nosing over or pushing forward on stick will help increase speed but you will have to rev eventually, so if you low you can use low yoyo build speed while turning , rev again use high yoyo grab you a little alt

there is no set rule of thumb when to use what, this comes with experience and patience and only way to get it is to keep flying, filming, dieing , and asking questions

but sounds like you are in it for the long haul so good luck and keep at it

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:10:33 PM »

Is there somewhere online that shows pictures of these maneauvers?

DYGCaps · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2004, 07:21:24 PM »

Laser, in most planes, if someone catches me low and slow, I'll try to force an overshoot and get a snap shot...Most times even if you miss, you get enough time to dive and pick up some speed for the fight. My favorite way to do this is either rolling sicssors or sometimes I'll just nose up a little bit and do loose barrel rolls...Althought if you do get a snapshot, in a 51B, most likely your not going to kill him, with only 4 .50's.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:04:41 PM »

Yeah, I gave up firepower on the p51 d for the maneuverability. It rocks! But don't underestimate the 4 .50's. I was putting quite a hurt out earlier.

Btw, Roscoroo, that's the best advice i've ever gotten, ever. My performance shot up 3x what I was doing the moment I got ingame.

WldThing · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:08:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
When low and slow and have enemy in on you, go nose to nose merge, this will make him either have to climb after merge(if he don't HO you) or at least reverse causing him to slow down and allowing you time to gain more alt or speed, if he comes in from high 6 you can rollout / snaproll/ barrel roll and make him miss/overshoot and if you quick enough possibly give you a quick snapshot at him

This is a good way to die.. For example if im in P51 and him in Spit, he does your move TC, i will dive down on him chop my throttle and shoot from 800 out, will extinguish him from the skies. This is no way to "clear" your 6.

Best move to do is a flat turn, once you see him coming closer and closer ( 400-500 ) you turn to the opposite side, therefore making him miss you and overshoot, you keep him in your sites and climb with him praying your close enough to shoot him.
All these moves sound complicated, but what i have always said is practice makes perfect, try some things until you see what works.

Hornet · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2004, 08:32:55 PM »

Punisher,
don't overlook the most basic but most important step -- that is identifying as early as possible that you will be jumped in a low E situation.

This allows you to get out of your climb and start gathering (hiding) E as well as initiate the manuever Wildthing described.

It is successful because it pushes many people to fly a "pure pursuit" path towards you. This basically means he puts his gunsight on you and keeps you there as he closes to guns range.

This is actually a GOOD thing as it makes his shooting angle more drastic. As he gets into guns range reverse your turn. This will cause the overshoot you want. At this point you can decide to press an attack or unload for an escape.

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2004, 09:48:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by WldThing
This is a good way to die.. For example if im in P51 and him in Spit, he does your move TC, i will dive down on him chop my throttle and shoot from 800 out, will extinguish him from the skies. This is no way to "clear" your 6.

Best move to do is a flat turn, once you see him coming closer and closer ( 400-500 ) you turn to the opposite side, therefore making him miss you and overshoot, you keep him in your sites and climb with him praying your close enough to shoot him.
All these moves sound complicated, but what i have always said is practice makes perfect, try some things until you see what works.

you refering to everything i said, or just the snaproll/barrelroll stuff? or just the go face to face?

I wouldn't climb toward a 51 that was fast and me low E. you would be a sitting duck for the flop over when you stall.

I am not saying you are wrong WldThing heck you are a well know killa of the skies, but I have had many a success in doing snaprolls when a faster attacker ins on me, and cause him to overshoot or miss .

I could see where 1 might think going nose to nose would be iffy though, since it is so easy to be hit with anything near a HO shot.

and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?

I am curious on this subject, please explain sir.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 14, 2004, 11:14:03 PM »

Well, i've been building up E by accelerating just horizontally like you've said. I've had great success with it. I'm only getting shot down at the end of the fight now.

WldThing · « **Reply #12 on:** January 14, 2004, 11:21:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?

I am curious on this subject, please explain sir.

Well your not pointing out how fast the enemy is, what alt im at, if the con made any passes yet... etc, many factors come into play if your gonna reverse someone..

But Lets just take for example, im on the Deck 2k, and i just got done fighting a spit that was co alt with my spit, Little slow but im gaining momentum.. Here comes a 109 Hovering above me, 5k for say.. He hasnt made any passes yet, and my speed is at about 200-230 mph.. So finally after a few seconds he dives on me, high 6 o clock.. I see him coming i pull off into a gentle Turn, as he comes closer and closer i pull harder... I see him shooting, and as soon as i see him shoot bullets i will climb up into an angle and barrel roll on top of him... What you have to remember is that the 109 is probebly a little blacked out since he is trying to follow me into my climb, therefore has no idea where i am yet.. I kick full rudder in the barrel roll to get around him faster..

Sooo what it comes down to at that point is where and how quick you made the reversal to be able to shoot and kill that bogie... If you did the reversal right you should be on his 6 depending on his speed of course.. If he is farely fast then of course you will be farther from his 6 (350-400) .. And if he is slow from pulling some G's you should be in the range of 250+.. Remember this is all in theory, but this is what goes thru my head, in a much faster rate. BTW forgot to include, LUCK is good too

Quote

and I have always thought doing flat turns you gain no E and probably will lose some. IF you done say 3 to 5 flat turns , while already low on E then how would you possibly be able to climb up the 6 of your enemy if he is keeping his speed up?

And to get back to your original question, there is always E to climb, just how far you climb is the key

.. When you go up even though you may not climb for long, you have to remember you will gain some E back during you small altitude increase by diving back down.. Etc Etc, the fight continues.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 14, 2004, 11:35:44 PM »

I think id listen to WldThing He is one of the best in the game .

He is basically talking about getting the nme A/C to dive in overshoot and getting the quick turn on them for the shot ... its one of the best moves you can do when the nme has the alt adv , and you have the turn adv .

What your doing is tricking them into making a quick high G turn and losing E very fast , and sight of you .

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #14 on:** January 14, 2004, 11:39:54 PM »

I understand ya WldThing, and yes its much easier to visualize when you have speeds and alts entered into the equation plus plane types.

I had assumed (probably where I messed up by assuming) we were talking about Punisher in a P51B , which doesn't accelerate all that fast like some other planes , spits, La7s , 109s and he was already low on E as in speed and no alt trying to climb out on takeoff.

I for one don't want to mislead anyone, is reason I asked for you to explain. and I thank you