Author Topic: is charles darwin the father of racisim?  (Read 5108 times)

Offline miko2d

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is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2004, 02:22:42 PM »
Sabre: The point I was trying to make is that absolutely no transitional forms, either in the fossil record or in modern animal and plant life, have been found. All appear fully formed and complete.

 It seems to ba a common misconseption that the transitional species are some kind of special non-fully functional species compared to the "stable" species.
 There is no such thing. Any species is a transitional form. Evolution is a change in frequency of gene alleles, so any species existing at any time is just a slice on the evolutionary branch. Gene allele frequency changes all the time - sometimes faster than others, under influence of natural factors. Any species at any time is a fully formed specie and a transitional step towards future species tham may come out of it - if it does not end up extinct.

Trillobites are a good example.  These are very simple creatures, yet hugely complex compared to single-cell organisms, which all other life (plant and animal) supposedly came from).   Yet there are no fossils showing earlier evolutionary steps leading up to trillobites.

 Maybe because the evolutionary forms leading to trilobytes were all soft parts and did not preserve well over billions of years? Unlike micro-organisms with hard skeletons and trilobites themselves with hard exo-skeletons?

The fossil record amply supplies us with representation of almost all species of animals and plants but none of the supposed links of plant to animal, fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, or reptile to birds and mammals are represented nor any transitional forms at all.

 The fossil record that we obtained is not complete and what we have is subject to classification and interpretation. Just because we name some species B instead of "A transitional step between A and C", it does not mean there was no transition between A and C.

Regarding chronology, proponents of evolution have used fossils in rock sediments to say that simpler organisms were at the bottom of the sediment and more complex ones were at the top, showing a chronological evolutionary progression from simple to complex. They have ignored the great inconsistencies in the finds for which a flood could account but not the evolutionary process. In fact, in some strata, a tree can be seen protruding through several layer which supposedly formed over millions of years. The rock strata consists of a plethora of contradictions and reversals. Often the strata that is supposed to be old is found on top and vice versa. Often they are horizontal with one another.

 Only few decades ago the very concept of plate tectonics and continantal drift was considered a funny nuicance. Since then we discovered that Earth crust plates do all kinds of tricks, flops, slides under each other, accumulating sedimant, raising on top, being covered with volcanic material from layers that are supposed to be below, etc. And that is just over the last few hundred million years.

 When we are talking about billions of years and not completely understand processes involved, making any claims where the layers should be is at best uninformed.

 miko

Offline Paul33

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« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2004, 02:32:16 PM »
People should do/join a religion/belive in whatever makes them happy:D

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2004, 02:55:38 PM »
Paul33: People should do/join a religion/belive in whatever makes them happy:D

 More correct statement would be "peope should be able practice any religion that makes them happy unless it harms others."

 Joining a religion is not a matter of free choice for a human. One is either religious or not. Religion is instilled in a human mind by upbringing and interaction with other people though some are more suceptible to being afflicted by it.

 The science of memetics treats religions as a kind of mental software virus that uses our minds to propagate. It's a facinating science about how various beliefs evolve features that make them more spreadable or resistant to elimination.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2004, 04:30:29 PM »
Quote
The fossil record amply supplies us with representation of almost all species of animals and plants but none of the supposed links of plant to animal, fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, or reptile to birds and mammals are represented nor any transitional forms at all.


Plant to Animal - Coelenterata, Blue Green Algae, Fresh water Diatoms.

Fish to Amphibian - lungfish, walking catfish

Amphibian to Reptile - Eryops

Reptile to Birds - You can't be serious? Archaeopteryx

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/08/000810071719.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/news-item154.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s161710.htm

Reptile to mammal - How about the monotremes? You know, mammals that lay eggs.

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2004, 04:33:03 PM »
Why do people worship a god that clearly is evil? he aint no better then satan imho.
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2004, 05:13:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Yawn... didn't we do this once?

BTW Sabre... you need to read "other" books too. The Bible ain't a science text.


Neither are most books on evolution:). Yawn, indeed. I never mentioned the Bible, btw.
Sabre
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2004, 05:36:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

It seems to ba a common misconseption that the transitional species are some kind of special non-fully functional species compared to the "stable" species.
 There is no such thing. Any species is a transitional form. Evolution is a change in frequency of gene alleles, so any species existing at any time is just a slice on the evolutionary branch. Gene allele frequency changes all the time - sometimes faster than others, under influence of natural factors. Any species at any time is a fully formed specie and a transitional step towards future species tham may come out of it - if it does not end up extinct.


So, the first flying animal was born with fully functional wings?  The first amphibian had fulling formed and functional legs? Does not evolutionary theory say that such increases in complexity, the addition of completely new capabilities happened gragually?  As an example, the formation of eyes over millenia, which began only as a light-sensitive spot on the skin?  I'll admit it; you've got me baffelled with this one.

Quote
Maybe because the evolutionary forms leading to trilobytes were all soft parts and did not preserve well over billions of years? Unlike micro-organisms with hard skeletons and trilobites themselves with hard exo-skeletons?


Again, so the trillobites evolved in a single evolutionary leap from a completely "soft" form into one with a complete skellitol structure?  How about the use of that most damning of words, "Maybe"?  When you try to support a hypothesis with other hypotheses, you've built an intellectual house of cards.

Quote
The fossil record that we obtained is not complete and what we have is subject to classification and interpretation. Just because we name some species B instead of "A transitional step between A and C", it does not mean there was no transition between A and C.


This is exactly the point I was making about how things presented as facts in the past have been proven wrong as time goes by, but are never acknowedged to have been proven false.  And here you admit that the data is incomplete, and subject to interpretation, i.e. not adequately proven.  That's my main point regarding evolution.  It doesn't deserve the classificaiton as a "theory" by your own admission.  You believe it based on faith, nonetheless.  You embrace it with all the fearvor of a religious zealot, because you find any other explaination goes against your view of the universe.

Quote
Only few decades ago the very concept of plate tectonics and continantal drift was considered a funny nuicance. Since then we discovered that Earth crust plates do all kinds of tricks, flops, slides under each other, accumulating sedimant, raising on top, being covered with volcanic material from layers that are supposed to be below, etc. And that is just over the last few hundred million years.

 When we are talking about billions of years and not completely understand processes involved, making any claims where the layers should be is at best uninformed.


"Not completely understood..." Exactly! Just like the theory of evolution.   Couldn't have said it better myself.  Some fossil finds that fit the chronological patterns are touted as proof of an evolutionary progression.  Those that don't are theorized away as the result of natural occurances.  Yet the later are much more prevalent than the former.  How can anyone say which is the correct interpretation of the evidence? Thanks again for making my point, that is, that evolution is but one possible explanation for the existance of complex life on this planet, one that requires just as much "faith" as a divine being or super-advanced beings form another world.
Sabre
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2004, 07:03:46 PM »
I will check out those passages Storch. I'm not religious, but I went to Catholic schools up through High School. So I do have an interest in the religious aspect of life. If for nothing else, the Christian principles are an excellent guide to get through life.

Also, do you know in which part of Revelations it mentions God handing power over to Satan to show that he's a just God and this eventually results in WWIII(Armageddon)? A friend and I were looking for it last night but gave up after a brief search.

Thanks.
-SW

Offline myelo

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« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2004, 08:13:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
So, the first flying animal was born with fully functional wings?  The first amphibian had fulling formed and functional legs? Does not evolutionary theory say that such increases in complexity, the addition of completely new capabilities happened gragually?  As an example, the formation of eyes over millenia, which began only as a light-sensitive spot on the skin?  I'll admit it; you've got me baffelled with this one.


Basically your argument is that you don’t understand how this could have happened so it must not have happened.  

Personally, I don't understand how planes fly or computers work. But many on this board do. If I came here and said planes can't possibly fly because they’re too heavy, I would be ridiculed relentlessly…and with good reason.

If you are truly interested in answers to these questions (and not just regurgitating creationist’s clichés, as someone more cynical than I might suspect) a good place to start is “ Climbing Mount Improbable” by Richard Dawkins. There are excellent chapters on evolution of wings and eyes.
myelo
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2004, 12:07:30 AM »
Hey Storch don't bother yourself with looking for it. I was simply wondering if you knew where it was for easy reference. I can find it on my own - when I have some time I'll look for it. I was just wondering if you could point me to it because my friend (and although he claimed he knew what passage it was in, it wasn't) was talking about it and I wanted to read exactly what it said.

I'll find it on my own, thanks though.
-SW

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2004, 12:34:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Lets discuss origins.  would it be possible for me to say that we can agree that there is a point of origination or am i way off base here?  Is there an answer to the question of origin?


[Carl Sagan Voice]

Approximately 15 billion years ago, a quantum event caused matter and energy to suddenly appear out of the original singularity.  The E=Mc2 equivalence was maintained, and inflationary theory caused the rapid expansion of spacetime until the end of the first epoc.

At this time, 1.2 x 10-23 seconds after the big bang, the first seperation of the weak and strong nuclear forces began to appear as the average temperature lowered to 16.5 e 15 degrees K.  Quantum mechanics still ruled this early universe, ....

[/Fade Carl Sagan Voice]
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 12:38:46 AM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2004, 03:02:58 AM »
[Carl Sagan Voice]

The quantum event which caused matter and energy to suddenly appear out of the original singularity is popularly known as the Big Bang.

This event is peculiar as before it, there was no before.  The Big Bang created not only the matter and energy, but the time and space into which it expands. So time itself started at the singularity and there was no time prior; as prior connotes time which did not yet exist... and no empty space.  

There was not even nothing and the not nothing did not exist in the before time period which could not exist in and of itself because time itself did not exist.

Clear?

[/Fade Carl Sagan Voice]
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Offline Shane

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« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2004, 07:01:37 AM »
god farted then bailed to another dimension, not to be seen or heard  since except in drug induced states by the occasional hairless sex-ape known as "human."

shouldn't that be [stephen hawking][/stephen hawking]?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2004, 07:44:13 AM »
I can mimic Carl's voice...  I need to get digital help to do Stephen's.

So it is Carl's vioce I use when discussing the finer points of cosmology, so: [Carl Sagan Voice]

In an infinite universe...which has always been infinite in its 3-d spatial volume even at the big bang...as you run this collapse back to moments after the big bang, you are still left with an infinite volume to 3-d space, but the density of matter and energy in the neighborhood of each point, becomes infinite. So, unlike the nearly point-like initial 3-d state of the closed universe with its nearly point-like initial singularity, for an infinite universe you end up with an infinite surface, which has an infinite density of energy and mass at each point.
 
This 'classical' description of the initial singularity breaks down when you add quantum mechanics to the picture. The minimum size becomes the Planck length of 10^-33 centimeters, and the density is no higher than 10^95 grams/cc. So, in both open and closed cosmologies, you reach a limiting density of 10^95 gm/cc everywhere. Also, various kinds of phase transitions may come into play to produce inflation once the universe reaches a size of 10^-25 cm.
[/Carl Sagan Voice]
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Offline Naso

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« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2004, 08:01:07 AM »
Storch you are a bad christian indeed.

Dumb and bad.