Author Topic: is charles darwin the father of racisim?  (Read 5109 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2004, 08:32:07 AM »
carl sagan?   Oh yeah... he was the guy who, during the first gulf war, predicted that if the sadman lit even half the oil fields on fire we would end life as we know it on this planet ... be blanketed by winter for a dozen years...etc.  the doom and gloom spouting from him went on and on and on and.... until the fires wer lit and then he kinda just.... vanished.

yeah.. science is cool... lets all live our lives according to science.

lazs

Offline Naso

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1535
      • http://www.4stormo.it
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2004, 08:46:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Naso never said I was either smart nor a good christian, you are an italian. er idiot.


I love you too :D

Anyway, hoping Hawking's death as you have done in your post is one of the lowest thing i've ever seen here.

You will go to hell, bad bad bad.

(psst, and a racist, too ;) )

Not a surprise from a fundamentalist, anyway.

Offline Tuomio

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 523
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2004, 09:25:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
So, the first flying animal was born with fully functional wings?  


Its an observed fact, that species charasteristics change over long perioids of time when there is selection pressure.  Genes make up our physical properties and fittest properties tend to survive compared to others. Do you see something problematic with this theory, ie. are certain physical features left unchanged no matter the pressure to change them? Simply, are arms unable to transform to better and better airbrakes when there is enough time and need for them?

Forget the fossils, if there were no fossils at all, evolution theory would still be the best around to explain the biodiversity.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

"The English moth, Biston betularia, is a frequently cited example of observed evolution. [evolution: a change in the gene pool] In this moth there are two color morphs, light and dark. H. B. D. Kettlewell found that dark moths constituted less than 2% of the population prior to 1848. The frequency of the dark morph increased in the years following. By 1898, the 95% of the moths in Manchester and other highly industrialized areas were of the dark type. Their frequency was less in rural areas. The moth population changed from mostly light colored moths to mostly dark colored moths. "

Quote
As an example, the formation of eyes over millenia, which began only as a light-sensitive spot on the skin?


Is there something special about the eyes, arent they generated by the same DNA coding that changes from human to human, to adapt its surroundings? If man was furred short time ago, why eyes could not have been just light sensitive single spots on skin, billion years ago?




Quote
This is exactly the point I was making about how things presented as facts in the past have been proven wrong as time goes by, but are never acknowedged to have been proven false.


So, evolution has been proven false, or atleast you suggest that evolution did not happen in some particular time but new species appeared some other way?


Quote
And here you admit that the data is incomplete


How could it be complete? If we would find fish with wings? No, then we would need data about transition species of fish and fish with wings, and so on.

Quote
and subject to interpretation,


As the very basic theories, like theory of gravity is open to interpretation. This is the one basic thing that makes the difference between religion and science, no taboos, no stone written facts.

Quote
i.e. not adequately proven.


This is false. Because there is nothing even remotely as consistent as evolution theory, it remains as the best explanation how we appeared on this cooled magma ball.

Quote
evolution is but one possible explanation for the existance of complex life on this planet


Point is, what explanation has most scientific data to back it up? Some things require more assumptions than others. Its pure fact that ie. flood theory requires that mathematical energy calculations are left away from it, so earth would not transform to  magma ball when earths crust gets flatten in 100 year timespan. There are observed things that explain why some fossils can have reversed chronological "depth" order (id like to read more about the reversed layer order on the same fossil). There are no observed events nor theoretical events in our current knowledge of physics, that support the second runner up, flood theory.

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2004, 09:25:36 AM »
Sabre: So, the first flying animal was born with fully functional wings?  The first amphibian had fulling formed and functional legs?

 No. By saying that every species was fully functional I mean that it was a species with all organs working and none organs flapping around and not-working because they are not evolved yet.
 There was never "the first" flying animal. There were species of an animal that could stay in the air better than it's predecessor species - maybe jump further or glide. At some point a species evolved fron that one that could hop small distances and then the one that flew.
 A chicken today is not a "transient" species with non-functional wings. Chicken wings are functional - they help it run and hop and fly a little bit. Just because the chicken does not fly as well as an eagle, it does not mean it is a different category of the species.

 It is possible that under proper condictions an eagle-like species would evolve from a chicken.
 It is also possible that an oistrich-like non-flying species would evolve from a chicken.
 It is possible that both would evolve if the conditions are right.

 As for the first amphibian having fully-developed legs, the seals and walkruses are amphibians and they have fully developed legs - not good by the earth standards but not a useless appandages waiting to be evolved into real legs. They are fully functional.

 A seal may evolve into a fully legged creature by having it's legs/flippers change very gradually over millenia into the appendages that are less suitable for swimming and better suitable for walking or climbing.
 But just because a new species can evolve from a seal, it does not mean the seal we have now is some kind of a special "transitory" half-baked species. It is superbly adapted to it's environment and living conditions - which involve a lot of swimming and a little walking. Once the ratio of swimming to  walking had to change under some natural influence, the seal would gradually adapt.


 Again, so the trillobites evolved in a single evolutionary leap from a completely "soft" form into one with a complete skellitol structure? How about the use of that most damning of words, "Maybe"? When you try to support a hypothesis with other hypotheses, you've built an intellectual house of cards.

 We do not find completely sceletal structure. We find all kinds of skeletal structures of varying hardness and complexity. Naturally we find fewer of the softer transitory forms because they were less likely to preserve for two reasons - existing earlier by billions of years and being less preservable.

 As for "maybe", you are playing with words. If you assing a different meaning to the word than I use, you get all kind of stuff that I never said. When I said "maybe" it ment I could not trace the process in detail. When rain falls, we have no idea and no guarantee which drop will fall where and in which order.
 Maybe this spot on the ground got wet first and maybe that one. But we can be pretty sure that every single spot will get hit by a raindrop or two after a serious rain. Just because I used the word "maybe" here, it does not mean you can claim that the ground may stay dry after a downpoor since I have not proved it conclusively how exactly each spot will get wet.

by, but are never acknowedged to have been proven false

 That's pure BS. Scientists make their careers mostly by proving previous suppositions false.
 If you listen to the mass media to make your opinion about sceince, no wonder you hear no retractions and upsets of the old theories. If you read the industry journals you would see it all teh time.

It doesn't deserve the classificaiton as a "theory" by your own admission.

 I would call it a working hypothesis.

You believe it based on faith, nonetheless. You embrace it with all the fearvor of a religious zealot, because you find any other explaination goes against your view of the universe.

 You are just throwing labels around. Just because I post a reply in a tread once a few months - not even initiating one - you call me a religious zealot.
 That's plain stupid and shows you as a religious zealot yourself - not accepting any gradations of gray and only seing it in black or white.
 If I am a religious zealot for posting a few paragraphs, what would you call people who activally and intrusively profess their faith, who cimmit violence and murder against those who do not share it? Do you call them "Double-plus super-mega religious zealot"?

Some fossil finds that fit the chronological patterns are touted as proof of an evolutionary progression.

 That's BS. Just because someone made a bad choice of words you do not have to take the idiocy and run with it. The fossils do not "prove" anything.
 They are consistent with the theory of evolution. They are aso constistent with the hypothesis that God created the whole universe yesterday and planted all the stuff - and our memories - to make it look old.

 When a hypothesis predicts an experiment, a negative outcomes proves conclusively that a hypothesis is wrong. But a positive experiment does not usually prove it is right - just that it is consistent with the result.

 There is a whole science of epistemology dedicated to the subject of what is knowlege and what is knowable and how.

 I do not have blind faith in evolution. I am just using it as a guide in my actions to get practical results. Plenty of people do - the selection and directed evolution process is going on on a massive scale. It yields results.
 Once you find some other theory that explains everything that happens and also allows to make better predictions, we all will be happy to adipt it.

  What do you really expect us to do if we admitted creationism? What would I have to do if I adopted creationism? Stop engaging in genetic manipulation and selective breeding and start praying to God to make my cow more productive or corn resistant to pests?

 You really think that would work?

 miko

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2004, 09:35:57 AM »
lazs2: carl sagan?   Oh yeah... he was the guy who, during the first gulf war, predicted that...

 Iv'e read his book "Candle in the dark". I was not impressed in the least - and I did not know anything about his stupid predictions.

 yeah.. science is cool... lets all live our lives according to science.

 That's a nice trick. Scince is not a personal opinion. In fact the Sagan's opinions were completely faith-based irrational beliefs. So they fall under religion, not science.

 As far as I know, he never produced any calculations or models of how a know given amount of oil burned would affect the climate. If he did that, his view would be a correct sceintific prediction even if proven wrong - because it would have allowed us to examine his premises and come up with a better models. In sceince a negative result is as valid as a positive one.
 In religion any result is meaningless in this world, because you would only supposedely know the difference after death.

 When you call a religious practice "science" and then proceed to badmouth science, it's hardly a valid argument.

 miko

Offline Sabre

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
      • Rich Owen
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2004, 12:17:33 PM »
Miko, your post here has degenerated into a form that is no longer cohesive enough for me to answer in detail.  I will merely re-iterate that evolutionary theory is full of holes and suppositions; a hyposhesis that happens to fit the facts, if the facts are arranged in the proper way, and the pieces that don't fit disgarded.

Quote
I would call it a working hypothesis.


Thank you! In a previous exchange on this topic, when I called evolution a hypothsis, rather than a theory, you attacked that statement, claiming it was much stronger than that, that it had passed all the scientific hurtles to earn the title of theory.  I never pushed you to accept creationism, nor do I propose to stifle scientic progress.  That's dumb.  I merely point out that you, as with many (but not all) scientists have grown intellectually lazy in regards to looking for other possibilities.  In all, I've enjoyed our exchange.  While neither one of us convinced the other, I hope that the exchange will prompt those on both sides of the argument to look deeper at what they believe, and why.  Thanks, and cya in the arena. and signing off.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2004, 01:25:26 PM »
miko... as i recall.... carl friggin sagan did show a computer model complete with maps about how the world was gonna end when the fires were lit.

If I had a dime for every scientific theory that has been shown to be total bull**** since I've been able to read... I would be a rich man.

lazs

Offline Tuomio

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 523
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2004, 01:26:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Miko, your post here has degenerated into a form that is no longer cohesive enough for me to answer in detail.  I will merely re-iterate that evolutionary theory is full of holes and suppositions; a hyposhesis that happens to fit the facts, if the facts are arranged in the proper way, and the pieces that don't fit disgarded.


Please provide us the theory which explains biodiversity and is not "full of holes".

Should we proceed to look in the holes of, for example,  genesis stated by the bible? That is more or less the ONLY other theory there is for my understanding.

Your implications to "flood" suggests, that you are creationist and somehow i am not suprised to find a creationist who suddenly fails to answer in detail to the questions as the discussion progresses to the roots and smoke screens stop working. In fact, i presume you will soon start to hibernate and will not respond to this thread anymore, only to wake up on another thread with exactly same discussion two months later, with the same "You aint got nuthing but apparently i don't either" answers.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2004, 01:35:25 PM »
or... the reality may be even different than any theory so far.

lazs

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2004, 01:44:25 PM »
lazs2: miko... as i recall.... carl friggin sagan did show a computer model complete with maps about how the world was gonna end when the fires were lit.

 Did you see my recent post on Bush and black-white abilities gap?
 Just because some religious nut (and I believe environmentalism to be a cult) uses numbers and claims his stuff "sceince", it is not necessarily so.

scientific theory that has been shown to be total bull****

 By scientific method. That's how the sceince works. People usually heve some opinions on everything, so most scientific progress is breaking down the old ones and replacing them with the new ones more accurately predicting the nature but not necessarily the ultimate ones.

 Gallileo made a lot of sceintific discoveries still thinking that light was particles. Then radio was invented based on the idea it was waves.
 Now we do not even know what to call the damn thing but the use we've got from the old ideas is still with us. They were working in their range of applications and when the range shifted, their deficiencies were exposed.
 By definition a scientific theory must be falsifiable. Any sceintist will tell you "show that this happens or does not happen and I will admit my view is wrong".

 The evolutionary paleontology and history and geology are hostorical sceinces - so by definition one cannot make experiments or even observe what happened. That poses a natural limit on the accuracy we can get. That hardly ever matters in natural sciences. We know how genes and ineritance and mutations work and we could easily breed a new species of, say, mice by selection that would not be able to interbreed with the original species. Anyone can do that. All you need is a few hundred mice, some ingenuity and a few hundred or thousand years to run through a few hundred generations.

 Now if we only could somehow expose deficiency in religious beliefs. As soon as you people sort out which religion is true and convice the rest of the earth's population - even without atheists - I will take your religious beliefs more seriously. :)

 miko

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2004, 01:55:26 PM »
you have no idea what my religious beliefs are... suffice it to say that they do not involve the religion of science or any other organized religion.

so far as science goes... I will use what is useful and works at the time.   Most of the theories have very little importance to me one way or the other so long as they are not used to justify taking things from me.   When I hear a new scientific theory my reaction is .... "well... isn't that special".   No need to get all excited about it.   someone will come along soon enough to prove it wrong.

Most religious belief is just that.. faith.   Can't be proved or disproved.  Not in our lifetimes in any case.

My "belief" is that it doesn't really matter... we will all know the truth soon enough.  I will deal with it then.   In the meantime... best to live your life in a way that you are comfortable with.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2004, 01:57:52 PM »
Science unlike religion is inherently provable or disprovable. The basis for Sagan's prediction was obviously wrong... that doesn't make him a bad scientist, just wrong. (Take note of Einstein's decades long attempt at a unified theory, bad scientist?)

"Historical science" as miko calls it is not impossible. Instead of using direct cause and affect experiments, scientists use models and hypothesize the results of theories to see if they match the models.

We have one helluva model in our biodiversity on planet Earth. Evolution when modeled through great eons of time fits this model very well. It is a physical activity that can be defined and tested through modeling. The problem with "creationists" is that there can be no question of the process. If the process is questioned, God is questioned.

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2004, 02:00:22 PM »
Ok MT... I will play the semantics game with you...

scientists are not bad people... they are just wrong.

lazs

Offline airguard

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
      • http://www.me109.net
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2004, 02:15:01 PM »
you really cant mean that laz, they had a great deal of right too.
Its more like you call all scientist,  to be doing somthing wrong or lie about they work. (they work hard and have proof (usually mathematical proofs about their work)
Ok they might do errors but they admit it after all.

Yes they are wrong from time to time but we would not been this far in evolution if we been whitouth them.

Blind faith in god/allahs did not bring the world much improvent either did it.

I take more faith in proven math/scientce provment, than a bible written by people with blind faith of somthing we dont know much about. ( for not saying how many times it have been changed)
I am a Norwegian eating my fish, and still let my wife mess me around in stupid shops...

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
is charles darwin the father of racisim?
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2004, 02:32:19 PM »
midnight Target:  that doesn't make him a bad scientist,

 He may be a good scientist in his field - which is astronomy.

 In environmentalism he is probably not a scientist at all but a cult member.
 He was not just wrong. There is a scientific process for submitting a new idea to a review of peers before publishing it. He just went public with nonsense without exposing it to the scientific scrutiny.

 The heart of the scientific process is not coming up with a new exting stuff - anyone can do that. The real issue is exposing it to skeptical peers and defending its premices and conclusions to their satisfaction.


lazs2: you have no idea what my religious beliefs are... suffice it to say that they do not involve the religion of science or any other organized religion.

 No offence intended. I was referring to a general reader.

"Historical science" as miko calls it is not impossible. Instead of using direct cause and affect experiments, scientists use models and hypothesize the results of theories to see if they match the models.

 Not saying it is impossible. What is impossible is using experiments and obserwations which are the only way to establish correctness of a hypothesis in natural sciences.

 miko
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 02:38:54 PM by miko2d »