Author Topic: so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM  (Read 4177 times)

Offline lazs2

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2004, 07:57:32 AM »
zazen..  Why don't you just admit that you don't care about realism and that you use the gamiest features of the sim to pad the score that you care so much about.

Real WWII pikots were agressive... sure they tried to survive... who wouldn't but they went on missions that in my opinion were near suicide.   They flew inferior planes against their enemies... the brits didn't all grab 190's when they came out.    There are many instances of pilots eagerly climbing to get at their enemies and fighting against large odds.... you fly a fast plane and watch your countrymen die.   you don't fly formations or anything like a realistic manner.

Realism does not apply in any case to this sim with it's distances and chess pieces and anything goes...  The only "realism" is the way the gunnery damage and FM's are simulated and you look for the gamiest features in all three.  If anything I feel that you are insulting WWII pilots by claiming to imitate them.

lazs

Offline Shane

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2004, 08:36:29 AM »
have to chime in here lazs... not *all* pilots were aggressive; many were pretty timid and didn't accomplish very much other than filling up the roster and boring holes thru the sky.

just like the game we play, the real guys had a mixture of personality types.

didn't chuck yeager say soemthing like, 10% of the pilots got 90% of the kills?

Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
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Offline lazs2

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2004, 08:55:41 AM »
you are correct shane but a great many were and those who weren't made a show of being... there were plenty of "mechanical malfunctions" that made pilots turn back.

I don't question or care about the way anyone flies in this game but... I will pull their covers when they choose the gamiest features of the sim and then try to claim some particular skill is involved.   That for some reason their 'score' proves that they are good at anything other than finding loopholes.... the metavoss school of thought.   They can do as they please but they should be hiding from exposure not bragging.

lazs

Offline mars01

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2004, 09:32:11 AM »
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Actually, I pray at the altar of the actual pilots that fought during World War 2, no matter what side they flew for. The same ones that inspire my imagination when I read of their harrowing exploits and heroic resolve. When I fly, I am performing a ritual of commemoration and rememberance in their honor. I even go so far as to immitate their methodology and tactics, to the best of my ability, endeavoring to at least vaguely fathom how they may have felt battling, with grim determination, for their lives in the skies over Europe and the Pacific.



What joke Zazen, if that were the case then you wouldn't need all your gay shade accounts.  You'd fly one account and let the numbers show the truth.  But instead you fly different accounts manipulate the game to force an outcome that is not accurate or even valid.  Then you throw up scores like they mean something.  :rofl

Also this game in no way reflects the realism of WWII combat.  It models the flight characteristics and that is about it.  The game play and the way people fly doesn't even come close.  If you have any doubt about that go read RA's post "U.S. fighter tactics".  After reading it, there is no doubt that the way WWII pilots flew and the way any arena in AH is set up are completely different.




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Lol Lazs, you make no sense at all, you are one confused little dude. With the notable exception of the Japanese kamikazes and the late war German suicide buff killing squadron (rammed them with barely trained pilots), I have never read of any 'suicidal' behavior on the part of WW2 Combat aviators.


Yeah and Boyington didn't get shot down chasing a record.  Please to make a statment like the above shows how narrow your view of WWII combat is.  It was plain suicide just climbing into those aircraft.  Unlike you these guys pushed their aircraft to the edge and back.  I caught a show on Wings about the lead 38 pilot in the PAC theater, they said after almost every flight he came back with poped rivits and warped pannels because he pushed his plane beyond the scope it was ment to fly in.  They didn't fly safe and timid not pushing their aircraft and they sure as hell didn't have shade acounts to cover their prettythanges.

Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2004, 10:11:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
What joke Zazen, if that were the case then you wouldn't need all your gay shade accounts.  You'd fly one account and let the numbers show the truth.  But instead you fly different accounts manipulate the game to force an outcome that is not accurate or even valid.  Then you throw up scores like they mean something.  :rofl

Also this game in no way reflects the realism of WWII combat.  It models the flight characteristics and that is about it.  The game play and the way people fly doesn't even come close.  If you have any doubt about that go read RA's post "U.S. fighter tactics".  After reading it, there is no doubt that the way WWII pilots flew and the way any arena in AH is set up are completely different.




 

Yeah and Boyington didn't get shot down chasing a record.  Please to make a statment like the above shows how narrow your view of WWII combat is.  It was plain suicide just climbing into those aircraft.  Unlike you these guys pushed their aircraft to the edge and back.  I caught a show on Wings about the lead 38 pilot in the PAC theater, they said after almost every flight he came back with poped rivits and warped pannels because he pushed his plane beyond the scope it was ment to fly in.  They didn't fly safe and timid not pushing their aircraft and they sure as hell didn't have shade acounts to cover their prettythanges.


Lol, Mars, first of all shades accounts are learning tools. I started AH 3 years after everyone else, I use them to accelerate the learning process. Unlike actual WW2 pilots I don't have the luxury of sitting down with fellow pilots, comparing notes, stories and tactics. Filming other pilots is VERY educational, I can recognize most premier pilots just by how they maneuver and behave now and react accordingly.

Secondly, don't confuse Boyington's lust for glory as suicidal, he was just overly enthusiastic and got his hand caught in the cookie jar. In MA vernacular, he got in too deep pressing for that 'one more kill'. His intention was not suicide or capture.

Thirdly, everyone pushes their planes as far as they will go, especially TnB planes, if you don't, you are dead, because the other guy sure as hell is, to think otherwise is folly. Nice argument though, doesn't work.

Zazen
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Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2004, 10:17:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
zazen..  Why don't you just admit that you don't care about realism and that you use the gamiest features of the sim to pad the score that you care so much about.

Real WWII pikots were agressive... sure they tried to survive... who wouldn't but they went on missions that in my opinion were near suicide.   They flew inferior planes against their enemies... the brits didn't all grab 190's when they came out.    There are many instances of pilots eagerly climbing to get at their enemies and fighting against large odds.... you fly a fast plane and watch your countrymen die.   you don't fly formations or anything like a realistic manner.

Realism does not apply in any case to this sim with it's distances and chess pieces and anything goes...  The only "realism" is the way the gunnery damage and FM's are simulated and you look for the gamiest features in all three.  If anything I feel that you are insulting WWII pilots by claiming to imitate them.

lazs


Actually, I am very aggressive when I  engage, I do it with great deliberation, and I stay engaged so long as it is prudent to. You are making alot of assumptions about how I fly with no actual first hand knowledge. I don't game anything, I just fly as close to the historical record as feasible within the framework of the game. My rank/score is usually decent but not, by any means, spectacular. Any really good Furballer has a better rank than I do. I did the exact same thing in AW, I just flew realistically, the high score was just symptomatic of the scoring system and it's bias toward realism.

Zazen
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Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2004, 10:20:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
you are correct shane but a great many were and those who weren't made a show of being... there were plenty of "mechanical malfunctions" that made pilots turn back.

I don't question or care about the way anyone flies in this game but... I will pull their covers when they choose the gamiest features of the sim and then try to claim some particular skill is involved.   That for some reason their 'score' proves that they are good at anything other than finding loopholes.... the metavoss school of thought.   They can do as they please but they should be hiding from exposure not bragging.

lazs


Loopholes? Jeezuz Lazs, you are an example of someone addicted to self-dellusion. Tell me exactly what loopholes I am exploiting? I fly Typhoon, F6f-5 and P47D-30. I fly them 20k or less, I engage descriminately but deliberately. I have good aim and good SA. How exactly is any of that exploiting loopholes in the game?

Zazen
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Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline mars01

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2004, 10:49:02 AM »
Geez Zazen you are like talking to a woman,

Call you on something and you change your story, you should be a spin doctor for some sleazy politician.

Quote
Lol, Mars, first of all shades accounts are learning tools. I started AH 3 years after everyone else, I use them to accelerate the learning process. Unlike actual WW2 pilots I don't have the luxury of sitting down with fellow pilots, comparing notes, stories and tactics. Filming other pilots is VERY educational, I can recognize most premier pilots just by how they maneuver and behave now and react accordingly.

You stated in other posts, "I have played these games a LONG time."  Now you are crying about being a noob.  FLip flopping as usual.  Learning tools, what a joke.  Shade accounts are so you can hide when you suck and so you can pad your public account.  If you wanted to be taken seriously you would post your aliases so we could see the real you.  As long as you hide behind those accounts your Zazen account and score are meaningless.

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Unlike actual WW2 pilots I don't have the luxury of sitting down with fellow pilots, comparing notes, stories and tactics. Filming other pilots is VERY educational,

More Zazen BS - This BB is same as sitting down with fellow pilots and many films are traded freely, not to mention all the ones you can record yourself.

Quote
Secondly, don't confuse Boyington's lust for glory as suicidal, he was just overly enthusiastic and got his hand caught in the cookie jar. In MA vernacular, he got in too deep pressing for that 'one more kill'. His intention was not suicide or capture.

See how you twist - You don't have to wake up in the morning and decide to be suicidal to make suicidal mistakes.  You stated, "I have never read of any 'suicidal' behavior on the part of WW2 Combat aviators."  Plain BS - "overly enthusiastic"  suicidal same thing, when you turn to semantics you are done.

Quote
Thirdly, everyone pushes their planes as far as they will go, especially TnB planes, if you don't, you are dead, because the other guy sure as hell is, to think otherwise is folly. Nice argument though, doesn't work.

Please in your last thread you stated you don't fly the planes outside of the way it should be flown, you were braggin about how careful you are.  Now you are psuhing your plane beyond its scope, because as you said, "if you don't, you are dead".  Your floping around more than when you have someone on your six.  What doesn't work here is your continued diarhea of the keyboard BS.

Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2004, 10:56:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
Geez Zazen you are like talking to a woman,

Call you on something and you change your story, you should be a spin doctor for some sleazy politician.

 
You stated in other posts, "I have played these games a LONG time."  Now you are crying about being a noob.  FLip flopping as usual.  Learning tools, what a joke.  Shade accounts are so you can hide when you suck and so you can pad your public account.  If you wanted to be taken seriously you would post your aliases so we could see the real you.  As long as you hide behind those accounts your Zazen account and score are meaningless.

 
More Zazen BS - This BB is same as sitting down with fellow pilots and many films are traded freely, not to mention all the ones you can record yourself.

 
See how you twist - You don't have to wake up in the morning and decide to be suicidal to make suicidal mistakes.  You stated, "I have never read of any 'suicidal' behavior on the part of WW2 Combat aviators."  Plain BS - "overly enthusiastic"  suicidal same thing, when you turn to semantics you are done.

 
Please in your last thread you stated you don't fly the planes outside of the way it should be flown, you were braggin about how careful you are.  Now you are psuhing your plane beyond its scope, because as you said, "if you don't, you are dead".  Your floping around more than when you have someone on your six.  What doesn't work here is your continued diarhea of the keyboard BS.


Umm, actually I am a better furballer than a suvivalist apparently, because when I compete against myself my furballing account always ranks higher ;)

As far as pushing planes, I also qualified that as TnB planes, just as you used the p38 as your example.

As far as trading films and stories, or filming your own missions. These are not necessarily the films I am looking for, I may want to film someone in particular or somone who is good in a plane I am working on, or perhaps someone who earlier did an incredible maneuver when I was not filming and wish to see it in action. I also ask for films, but the quality of films I get on my own are far better. People tend to be subjectively selective about their own films they keep of themselves.

While I have alot of Combat Sim experience , I am relatively Inexperienced with Aces High compared to the upper echelon players I am in competition with. I still have alot to learn about AH. That is part of the appeal of this game, always something new to learn, very dynamic.

Furthermore, I think you are incorrect in lumping suicidal and overly-enthusiastic, or over-aggressiveness in the same category. WHile in some examples the end result may be the same, the difference is that of intention. Suicide is the deliberate and willfull taking of ones' own life. Over-aggressiveness is forcing an attack beyond the limits of safety in order to inflict maximum damage upon the adversary. See how the end result may be the same, but the intention is entirely different? Think about it.

Zazen
« Last Edit: February 09, 2004, 11:06:59 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline nopoop

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2004, 08:21:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Lol, Mars, first of all shades accounts are learning tools. I started AH 3 years after everyone else, I use them to accelerate the learning process. Unlike actual WW2 pilots I don't have the luxury of sitting down with fellow pilots, comparing notes, stories and tactics
Zazen


That explains nothing. You don't want your exalted position in score to be comprimised.

That's silly, who cares ?? Besides you ??

I'm in the cellar this tour, workin on stuff.

Gettin my bellybutton handed to me but I use my account, with my handle.

With all your disertations about realism..having more than one account to practice on different things is as far from realism that you can be.

It's the snicker factor.

You got it, we enjoy it.

Snickers are fun and you've provided more than a few in these last weeks.

Good show :)
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..

Offline Tinpot

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2004, 09:20:50 PM »
Relative new bloke here. So bear with me.

Just an observation as the thread seems to have got bogged down in historical accuracy issues. I used to fly AW in the allies versus axis theatre years ago. In that game and particular arena I think history was more acurately reflected. The plane set rotated putting early war variants against each other. Also the different countries used different plane sets so you didn't get the farcical sight of spitfire pilots trying to shoot each other down for example. Spit pilots went for 109s or 190s. seems to me that until the game ( for that is what it is chaps ) evolves in that direction history will be in the back seat. To be honest its fun as it is I admit, but as someone who came to WW2 combat games becauseI have an interest in the period it seems a shame that the game does not attempt to re create at least some semblance of historical accuracy. As I recall it was good for squads aswell. Axis orallied squads all had their own character which added another dimension to the game for us "Walter Mitty" types lol. (apologies for any misspellings. Not my forte I'm afraid )

Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2004, 11:34:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tinpot
Relative new bloke here. So bear with me.

Just an observation as the thread seems to have got bogged down in historical accuracy issues. I used to fly AW in the allies versus axis theatre years ago. In that game and particular arena I think history was more acurately reflected. The plane set rotated putting early war variants against each other. Also the different countries used different plane sets so you didn't get the farcical sight of spitfire pilots trying to shoot each other down for example. Spit pilots went for 109s or 190s. seems to me that until the game ( for that is what it is chaps ) evolves in that direction history will be in the back seat. To be honest its fun as it is I admit, but as someone who came to WW2 combat games becauseI have an interest in the period it seems a shame that the game does not attempt to re create at least some semblance of historical accuracy. As I recall it was good for squads aswell. Axis orallied squads all had their own character which added another dimension to the game for us "Walter Mitty" types lol. (apologies for any misspellings. Not my forte I'm afraid )


Yea, I think the makers of these games have found through bitter experience that specializing the arenas too much doesn't sell. The simple fact is, the common recreational/casual player enjoys the freedom of the homogenous mix. I find the only way, at present, I can enjoy that kind of historical recreation with many people is the scheduled special events and scenarios. Hopefully with AH2 "Tour of Duty" there will be another option that may blend the salient points of both perspectives into an amicable experience for all.

Zazen:cool:
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2004, 11:39:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by nopoop


Good show :)


Thank-You, my goal when I started this flurry of posting was to draw attention away from a certain thread that was doing considerable damage to the morale of the community. Focussing too much on the negative aspects of an imperfect system only serves to degrade the experience for everyone. Instead, I wanted to put the focus back where it should be. What people do to have fun in AH! I shared my version of fun with everyone as a conversation piece to incite discussion and debate. My version of fun is different from yours, and yours different than the next guy. But, the fact is, for 15 bucks a month this is one damn entertaining game, with something for everyone.

Zazen:cool:
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline lazs2

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2004, 08:07:56 AM »
claiming to fly "realisticly" and "prudently" in late war fast planes in an anything goes arena is simply using loopholes and then justifying it...  using gamey feartures like osties and ship guns to pad your score is.... very obvious..

That's all fine and everyone needs some self delusion but I don't think it's selling here.     Players know who is good and who is simply an oportunist...    if you are an opportunist then drawing attention to yourself will not make people say "hey look at zazen's score!   he allways looked like a sissy little b&z weenie to me but wow.... he must be good if he says so!"   Maybe someday someone will tell us how good you are but you will have to earn it.

lazs

Offline Zazen13

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so what is this game a FLIGHT SIM OR A COMBAT SIM
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2004, 10:07:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
claiming to fly "realisticly" and "prudently" in late war fast planes in an anything goes arena is simply using loopholes and then justifying it...  using gamey feartures like osties and ship guns to pad your score is.... very obvious..

That's all fine and everyone needs some self delusion but I don't think it's selling here.     Players know who is good and who is simply an oportunist...    if you are an opportunist then drawing attention to yourself will not make people say "hey look at zazen's score!   he allways looked like a sissy little b&z weenie to me but wow.... he must be good if he says so!"   Maybe someday someone will tell us how good you are but you will have to earn it.

lazs


So, only those like yourself who insist on competeing against 1944/45 planes with 1941/1942 planes are not exploiting loopholes? Complete and utter horse hockey my friend. 99% of people fly 1944+ planes, using them yourself is actually MORE realistic. I never claimed to be 'great' or 'better' than anyone. You are just making up stuff to rant about like you always do. Have fun!

Zazen:cool:
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc