Author Topic: God ?  (Read 7709 times)

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2004, 06:21:27 PM »
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Originally posted by Maniac
Good point hehe. If god exists who created him? and who created him who created him etc etc...


Exactly, the most common Christian argument is the universe cannot possibly have either just 'happened' or existed forever. Yet this same logic does not apply to their god.

BTW, saw some stuff recently on random existance. In laymens terms the theory is that stuff can randomly pop into existance, BUT the chances are almost infinitely small. However, time is infinitely long, therefore sooner or later its guaranteed to happen. Hence the big bang and us.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2004, 12:03:13 AM »
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Originally posted by Vulcan

BTW, saw some stuff recently on random existance. In laymens terms the theory is that stuff can randomly pop into existance, BUT the chances are almost infinitely small. However, time is infinitely long, therefore sooner or later its guaranteed to happen. Hence the big bang and us.



Well with that logic, God would have been gauranteed to happen too.

Basically every argument of science that explains the origin of the universe can be just as effectivley applied as an argument for a God/creator.

That is my point throughout this thread. I never brough religion into the discussion, just a philisophical point of view regarding the possibiltiy of a God who created the universe and ourselves.

to everyone here for a clean thread by the way.

Offline Boozer2

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« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2004, 06:36:21 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well with that logic, God would have been gauranteed to happen too


  As well as leprechans, minotaurs, the invisible pink unicorn(bless her hooves) and Thor, Hera, Mithra et al and blue microscopic foam eating frogs...

Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Basically every argument of science that explains the origin of the universe can be just as effectivley applied as an argument for a God/creator.


   Well and good, it seems it can apply to any nebulous idea if you desire, of course the difference is we KNOW the universe exists. It's a big universe and we're so busy trying to understand it that we still  restrict our investigations to things we know are real.

Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
That is my point throughout this thread. I never brough religion into the discussion, just a philisophical point of view regarding the possibiltiy of a God who created the universe and ourselves.


   Philosophically, you can hide your god in any gap of knowledge that you please, you may need to move him later as we discover and figure out more, but he's safe there for now. Some have even kicked him outside of time and space to avoid having to present evidence for their rantings, strange that, because it seems to me to kick him out of existance into the undefined.  His proof for you is your own faith and upbringing and that's fine, you are more than welcome to continue in that vein, even raise your own kids the same. I'm sure you'll extend the same courtesy to me if I don't go along with your baseless concepts though.  Please don't pretend that this is, in any way, a justification to trot him out into my boy's sceince class, either.

   
 Booz
 
  The invisible and undetectable are indistiguishable from the non-existant (stolen & rephrased from somewhere)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2004, 07:48:42 AM by Boozer2 »

Offline Ecke-109-

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« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2004, 06:53:00 AM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
Ecke!....... What part of Germany do you live in?....

Hallo Beetle,
I live in Berlin since 9 years. Dirty it is and in much places ugly too.
But its also full of history. Especially ww2. Lots of buildings(those which survived) still have these little holes in the walls. Caused by firearms. I also know a bridge where you can see fragments of a panzer grenade sticking in the iron construction. And 3-4 times a year we have 'bomb alarm' when the ones are found which refused to explode in the past.
I lived at the north sea coast before i moved. That is where everyone is greeting with the word 'Moin'. Which means 'morning' as you can guess.
That must be a relict from sailors in the past. Which traded with the close british empire.

Ecke

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #154 on: February 10, 2004, 08:41:24 AM »
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Originally posted by Boozer2
As well as leprechans, minotaurs, the invisible pink unicorn(bless her hooves) and Thor, Hera, Mithra et al and blue microscopic foam eating frogs...
it's not my theory, it's a theory that science takes seriusly though.... isn't that funny? People have no problem believing it though..... I guess faith makes them beleive it.
 
 
Quote
Well and good, it seems it can apply to any nebulous idea if you desire, of course the difference is we KNOW the universe exists. It's a big universe and we're so busy trying to understand it that we still  restrict our investigations to things we know are real.


 The fact that something caused the universe to come into being isn't a nebulous idea, it's a fact.

 What you fail to understand is that I am not talking about religion in any way, shape or form.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2004, 04:53:51 PM »
Ecke! I never heard the greeting "Moin". One greeting I heard for the first time in 2003 was "Gruß Gott" <-- that ß didn't look too good, so alternative spelling: Gruss Gott. I actually heard that in Italy! But that part of Italy which used to be Austria, and was given to Italy for their help to Germany in WW1 (I believe, not WW2).

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2004, 06:44:45 PM »
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal;  that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

Our Founding Fathers and many of our most famous historical figures firmly believed that our rights could not be preserved if the general population did not believe that they were the gift of the Divine Creator...and that the principles of democracy itself were drawn from the Bible.

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."  

John Adams


"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.  In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness...The mere politician...ought to respect and to cherish them.  A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity.  Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert?...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.  Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail, in exclusion of religious principle."

George Washington

"Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention;  and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed.  In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other;  but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country."

Alexis De Tocqueville

"No free government now exists in the world unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country...Its foundations are broad and strong, and deep...It is the purest system of morality, the firmest auxiliary, and only stable support of all human laws."

Supreme Court of Pennsylvania;  Updegraph v. the Commonwealth, 1824

"The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."

Calvin Coolidge

Can democracy endure if individual rights are no longer perceived to have a sacred origin?  If they are not to be held sacrosanct, can the populous resist the temptation to rewrite them to suit an unbridled and capricious attitude toward morality?

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern

Offline Boozer2

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« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2004, 09:59:21 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE

 The fact that something caused the universe to come into being isn't a nebulous idea, it's a fact.


 I really try to keep up with the latest research & discoveries as much as the next guy but I missed ever seeing this, can you refer me to where you got this fact? I'd like to read up on it, did it mention any evidence as to what this cause might be?

Booz

The invisible & undetectible are indistiguishable from the non-existant

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2004, 10:30:58 PM »
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Originally posted by Boozer2
I really try to keep up with the latest research & discoveries as much as the next guy but I missed ever seeing this, can you refer me to where you got this fact? I'd like to read up on it, did it mention any evidence as to what this cause might be?

Booz

The invisible & undetectible are indistiguishable from the non-existant


Are you saying you don't believe "something" caused the universe to be created?  Maybe you believe the universe always existed? Which one do you believe, because those are your two options.

And the Big Bang Theory implys that the universe was created....by the big bang itself, isn't that convenient?

Offline Boozer2

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« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2004, 11:17:43 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
Are you saying you don't believe "something" caused the universe to be created?  Maybe you believe the universe always existed? Which one do you believe, because those are your two options.


 I believe I was asking about a "fact" you proferred and where you found it. Are you implying it you can't support it?

Quote
And the Big Bang Theory implys that the universe was created....by the big bang itself, isn't that convenient?


 Let's just make up something instead eh?


Booz

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2004, 11:26:53 PM »
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Originally posted by Boozer2
I believe I was asking about a "fact" you proferred and where you found it. Are you implying it you can't support it?

 

 Let's just make up something instead eh?


Booz


It is a fact that the universe came into being. What is your exact question regarding that ?

I will boldy state that it is a fact that the universe came into being. Do you still need to ask where I found this?

Now tear my argument apart. I am waiting.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2004, 11:29:23 PM by NUKE »

Offline Boozer2

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« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2004, 12:55:02 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
It is a fact that the universe came into being. What is your exact question regarding that ?

I will boldy state that it is a fact that the universe came into being. Do you still need to ask where I found this?

Now tear my argument apart. I am waiting.


 As stated there you're ok, you've taken out "something caused"

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2004, 01:02:14 AM »
... that's pretty much the question... did it just come into being or did something (or someone) cause it to come into being.

:D
sand