Author Topic: Iraq, the beggining of the end of islamic terror? (Read 3788 times)

AKIron · « **Reply #45 on:** February 11, 2004, 11:38:01 AM »

Democracy in Afghanistan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3238271.stm

Never said it would be easy.

Bodhi · « **Reply #46 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:04:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
Afghanistan and Iraq.

AKIron,

Afhganistan is Persian, not arab... go over there and call them arabs... you'll come home in a small envelope.

miko2d · « **Reply #47 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:07:50 PM »

Bodhi: AKIron,
Afhganistan is Persian, not arab... go over there and call them arabs... you'll come home in a small envelope.

The question was "Is there even 1 muslim country that is a democracy?"

What does it have to do with arabs?

miko

miko2d · « **Reply #48 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:24:50 PM »

Frogm4n: Dont get me wrong, i really hope democracy works out over there,...

Democracy works by destroying the afflicted society or at best results in tyrany. It also causes society to be much more aggressive.
It's the constitutional republic that gives a society a chance to develop.

Shia theocrats are the ones who want democracy in Iraq - because they have clear majority.
Nobody wants democracy in Afghanistan except for US puppet government because there is no clear majority there.

Now a word from Founding Fathers:

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Alexander Hamilton:
"a clear sacrifice of great positive advantages, without any counterbalancing good; administering no relief to our real disease, which is democracy, the poison of which, by a subdivision, will only be more concentrated in each part, and consequently the more virulent."
-- Letter to Theodore Sedgwick,July 10, 1804

"It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity."
-- Speech on June 21,1788

Elbridge Gerry (Declaration, Constitution, governor, vice president):
The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want [do not lack] virtue; but are the dupes of pretended patriots.
-- Madison's Convention Notes, May 31st

John Adams:
"Democracy will envy all, endeavour to pull down all, and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand, it will be revengeful, bloody and cruel."
-- Letter to Jefferson, July 16, 1814

"Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
-- Letter to John Taylor, April 15, 1814

John Quincy Adams:
"The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.
-- Speech April 30, 1839

Fisher Ames (Author of the House Language for the First Amendment):
"A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way."
-- Speech on Biennial Elections, delivered January, 1788.
The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty.
-- "The Dangers of American Liberty," February 1805.
"Liberty has never lasted long in a democracy, nor has it ever ended in anything better than despotism."
"..democracy that pollutes the morals of the people before it swallows up their freedoms."

James Madison:
"...Government capable of protecting the rights of property against the spirit of Democracy"
-- Letter to Jared Sparks, April 8, 1831.

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Thomas Jefferson:
"The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature, for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed, it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say, that that form of government is the best, which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government?"
-- Letter to John Adams, October 28, 1813

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

Alexis de Tocqueville in "Democracy in America":
"After having successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power [of democracy] then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent and guided…men are seldom forced to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting…Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people…
Thus, their spirit is gradually broken…gradually losing the faculties of thinking, feeling, and acting for themselves. People then console themselves at the loss of their liberties by the reflection that they have chosen their own guardians."

Also:

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H. L. Mencken:
"Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods."

John Adams:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

miko

AKIron · « **Reply #49 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:31:08 PM »

Actually, what is being established (at least attempted) in Afghanistan is a Republic. A Republic must have officals and leaders. What better way to appoint them than by democratic process?

Momus-- · « **Reply #50 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:44:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2Slow
If I had been President, I would have authorized the use of nukes in the anaconda valley.

Given your post and the ideas expressed therein, you're quite clearly not presidential material. Bush lowered the bar but not by that much.

miko2d · « **Reply #51 on:** February 11, 2004, 12:55:06 PM »

AKIron: Actually, what is being established (at least attempted) in Afghanistan is a Republic. A Republic must have officals and leaders. What better way to appoint them than by democratic process?

Hmm... I don't know. Natural nobility? Negotiations between major power factions? Having them fight it out once and for all? Have one imposed on them - provided he is backed up with some kind of power? Restore a heir to previous monarch? Invite someone of noble blood (descendant of the Prophet) to rule over them? Double-blind essay competition? Have the 5% of the wealthiest people vote?

What worse way to appoint them than by democratic process?

It's much less important who is the ruler than making sure that ruler's power is really constrained by the Constitution and the people.

miko

AKIron · « **Reply #52 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:05:04 PM »

Ruler? As I'm sure you know Miko, a republic is ruled by law. Surely you aren't arguing the need for officials? Who will see to it that the law is applied fairly to all? I stand by appointing these officials democratically.

To be more accurate, Afghanistan is looking to become an Islamic Republic, which may deny the whole democratic process.

miko2d · « **Reply #53 on:** February 11, 2004, 01:57:11 PM »

AKIron: Ruler? As I'm sure you know Miko, a republic is ruled by law. Surely you aren't arguing the need for officials? Who will see to it that the law is applied fairly to all? I stand by appointing these officials democratically.

Right. By "ruler" I ment a person or a commitee that is charged/empowered with administering the Law.

There are huge problems with democratically- elected officials administering the law. When they inevitably attempt usurping the power to create the law - and thus place the government above the law - the population is much less likely to stop them than in the case where the "rulers" are appointed otherwise. In short, democratic constitutional republics tend to degrade into totalitarian democracies fairly quickly.

Quote

Alexis de Tocqueville in "Democracy in America":
"Thus, their spirit is gradually broken…gradually losing the faculties of thinking, feeling, and acting for themselves. People then console themselves at the loss of their liberties by the reflection that they have chosen their own guardians."

People are much more jelous of their liberties when they do not have false hope that they could also end up in power and then steal from everyone else.

I guess once the existing order is destroyed, there is not much choice - either a democratic process or clear power domination by some faction.
Their government will probably get too much power to start with - nowhere near as little as US Government when US was created - and will go downhill from there.
Too bad.

miko

Sandman · « **Reply #54 on:** February 11, 2004, 02:53:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Frogm4n
not really akiron. Is there even 1 muslim country that is a democracy?

Turkey?

BGBMAW · « **Reply #55 on:** February 11, 2004, 03:21:35 PM »

haahh frog so you cant..say you are not a LIAR!!!!!!!!
and like the waked out muslims..so were the Japanese...

the westerners are ..subhuman..blah blah..we are superior,,,same thing...

its all in the education....

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getting shot at 50 times a day

this is the sam ekind od BS CNN and the ohter anti-amercan CRAP that gets spewed out an dtakn for 'Fact"..

stop inflating claims of Amercian Deaths..you Liek it huh?? I think you are scum

Our Soldiers get shot at 50 times a Day>?

i mean WTF are you saying... Its cool..no one else is saying anything to you about it ..I guess they already knwo you are a fool...why dont you guys see the good we do in the World..WE ARE THE LEADERS..of FREEDOM ...

We spent American Blood and Dollars in the Armpit of Eurupe TWICE in one century to save there asssses..
and what do we get now.....Ohhh vietnam..blah blah..We are horrible baby killers...

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Just tell me, what superior qualities do they see in our culture?

You know what Miko...Kill them..F it...If they wont take the tiem to read about History..Screw them..So..I guess you can agree that America is not the Beacon of FREEDOM!!?? And the Beacon for Human Rights...??We have done more positive for humans then any other "hole on this earth

What were we doing When 55 Million peopl were being systematically slaugheted in the late 30s early 40's?? Did we run away and say ..ahh we dont care? ( we almost did)
Are you one of those guys who said we killed mass amounts people for no reason in Japan and Germany?

blahh..

Love
BiGB
xoxo

miko2d · « **Reply #56 on:** February 11, 2004, 03:45:15 PM »

BGBMAW: You know what Miko...Kill them..F it...If they wont take the tiem to read about History..Screw them..

Unlike japanese who have never seen an american except through gunsites, the terrorists in question are living and moving among us - and thus familiar with our way of life.

So..I guess you can agree that America is not the Beacon of FREEDOM!!?? And the Beacon for Human Rights...??

Who the heck cares about freedom? Certainly not americans and those "terrorist" guys do not have much either, so why would I talk about it in this thread? I was not saying anything about relative freedoms.

I am saying that americans as a nation are going extinct - literally, as in "in a few generations there will be a fraction of the former population left". And europeans are doing that even faster.

Are you one of those guys who said we killed mass amounts people for no reason in Japan and Germany?

I do not see how it is relevant to anything we talk about in this thread, so I will wait untill more relevant thread comes along. If you disagree with some point I actually made here, adress it, rather than attributing to me some nonsense of your own manufacture or guess what I could be saying on unrelated topics.

miko

BGBMAW · « **Reply #57 on:** February 11, 2004, 05:09:41 PM »

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I am saying that americans as a nation are going extinct

?????

umm explain further please

maslo · « **Reply #58 on:** February 11, 2004, 06:12:44 PM »

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Originally posted by Dago
Most of this terrorism is hate based more than religion based, religion is just used as the rallying point to convince weak minded gullible young people to sacrifice themselves.
At its heart, terrorism is more about hate, about envy and feelings of inferiority than anything else.

dago

i do not agree
Terrorism is not about religion.
Terrorism is based on Economical needs, whitch should be hidden behind religion.
history of christians, jews are nice examples. I dont fear that islam is somehow imune to abuse.

Everybody have some profit from various situation.
Money ruled it before and they rule it now.

maslo · « **Reply #59 on:** February 11, 2004, 06:23:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Frogm4n
not really akiron. Is there even 1 muslim country that is a democracy?

No.

I realy do not know sutch country.

But i know a lot of country, whitch belive that htey are best of the best.

I know some country, where they call it democracy and they cant even have a beer on the street.
I know some country, where one tit on the TV screen cause bigger problem that thousands of suffering people on the other continent.

Well i saw a lot of country, whitch run as you call it democracy and i saw a lot of diferent countries, whitch run something diferent.

It doesnt matter whats your political system in your country, until it respect its owen people and people respect that system.

Iranian impressed it very well. When i were asking them what do they want about 90% of them said. We need political change badly. But if US will step on out land, we will go and fight them.
Even people whitch hate islam spoke like that. And you can only wonder, what made them think like this.

In fact that every country is very well organized terrorist group, whitch put terror uppon minority, i do not see anything special on your meaning of democracy.