Iraq, the beggining of the end of islamic terror?

[ravells]

2 Slow:

I seriously hope that your fellow countryment think that your point of view is, marginal, extremist and utterly stupid. If you represent the view of the 'common man' in your country then God help us all.

Virtually every nation has porous borders, the US included. A few 'well placed nukes' would probably result in a world economic meltdown, a hithterto unprecedented spiral of violent retribution against innocent Americans in the US and abroad and scant sympathy from the rest of the planet.

Ravs.

Miko - I think your idea of children working in their parent's busineses and of apprenticehip are great, but that relies on a 'small is beautiful' Shumacker (spelling?) scale of economics. Right now, production is on a massive scale and many more people then ever before work in service industries where apprenticeship doesn't really serve.

More and more parents in the UK are 'opting out' out sending their children to school and educate them at home without the knowledge of the authorites. Some for religious reasons but many because they just don't believe that classroom education is sufficent and that their children will be exposed to negative influences. Because these people fly 'under the radar' there are no official figures, but I think the percentage is tiny, but increasing.

Don't forget that wealthy people in old times had plenty of children, partly because child mortality, even for the wealthy, was much higher.

Ravs

[miko2d]

ravells: Miko - I think your idea of children working in their parent's busineses and of apprenticehip are great, but that relies on a 'small is beautiful' Shumacker (spelling?) scale of economics. Right now, production is on a massive scale and many more people then ever before work in service industries where apprenticeship doesn't really serve.

 Not even close. Modern job market, service-based economy and automated/mechanised industry created enourmous variety of safe, non-physically demanding jobs that children could easily perform - and wish to perform and would perform more if not for idiotic regulations that severely restrict their working hours, kinds of occupations and impose huge paperwork.

 As a part of my school's monthly "practice", at 15 I worked the lathe on the plant, making cylinder inserts for huge engines. The next year I worked on brick-making factory. Working on the fields was common as well. I learned a lot from that.

 miko

[straffo]

Originally posted by miko2d
 I fully appreciate the difference between the terms socialist (socialiste) and social (sociale).

 I ment socialist policies as in Auguste Compte-Seint Simon-Marx-Keynes political philisophy characterised by increased predominance of state in economic and social spheres.

 Economically, the costs of raising good children has been kept mostly private while benefits have been mostly socialised. Also, the economic burden on demographic elite - people most able to raise good children - was disproportionately increased.
 The traditional and natural economic insentives of having and raising good children have been eliminated.

 In social sphere, the increasingly-centralised state took over parenting, education and indoctrination of the children with state-approved culture while opposing the traditional cultural influences and local traditional limits on what children could be exposed to by commertial media.
 Such children grow into adults - and do not care for children of their own.
 [/B]

I was not questionning you ability to differentiate social and socialism it was just not clear for me , obvioulsy ifnot I won't have written about Malthus.

I can't disagree with you about the social influence but I completly disagree about the "state approved" effect ...

I sincerely prefer having the time to educate my 2 kids than having to send them to the coal mine.

I'm pretty tired tonight I'll try today to make a real post.

[stiehl]

As a part of my school's monthly "practice", at 15 I worked the lathe on the plant, making cylinder inserts for huge engines. The next year I worked on brick-making factory. Working on the fields was common as well. I learned a lot from that.

 miko

I agree with that. Kick out the troublemakers, send the stupid kids to trade/tech school, leave HS to the kids that actually want to learn and want to go to a Uni.

[miko2d]

straffo: I sincerely prefer having the time to educate my 2 kids than having to send them to the coal mine.

 That is a totaly not true what you've just said. You totally confuse cause and consequence.
 If your children were allowed to work in the coal mine or elsewhere, that still would not mean that you woule "have to" send them to work in the coal mine.

 In fact you do send children to work every day - hard work accumulating intellectual capital to use in the future. While families in the past sent children to work every day to invest in getting food for the next week and avert starvation.
 Schooling children only makes sense if investing in intellectual capital is more profitable than investing into current consumption/preservation of life.

 Sending children to work was the best option available to the families at the time. However hard the conditions were, the alternatives - work in the field, starvation, etc. - had to be worse, otherwise the family would not have done that.

 The need for families to send children to work in industry disappeared as a result of natural increase in productivity due to accumulation of capital.
 With increased wealth, it became possible and profitable to invest child's labor in education instead of ensuring immediate survival.

 The state had nothing (positive) to do with the natural process that made child labor unnecesary - though it certainly claims the credit.

 miko

[Monk]

Great and illustrative responce, Monk.
 Maslo, are you still wondering why people hate us?  

 Err......who's us?

[miko2d]

Who do you think it is?

 miko

[ravells]

As a part of my school's monthly "practice", at 15 I worked the lathe on the plant, making cylinder inserts for huge engines. The next year I worked on brick-making factory. Working on the fields was common as well. I learned a lot from that.

Miko, I'm curious, What did you learn, apart from how to make a cylinder insert, bricks and digging / growing stuff in fields?

For me the idea of apprenticeship is one where people learn a skill which involves more than flipping burgers or putting the heads on dolls in a production line.  Carpentry, plumbing etc were the sorts of apprenticeships I was thinking of.

I'm not sure it would be a great idea having children operating a iron foundry or working in other heavy industry. I would imagine the accident rate would be quite high unless there was plenty of adult supervision.

Isn't the idea behind education to allow children to learn enough so that they can have the wherewithall to choose what they want to be in later life? If they spend all their time working on a field they won't be qualified to do anything else later on.

Ravs

[miko2d]

ravells: Miko, I'm curious, What did you learn, apart from how to make a cylinder insert, bricks and digging / growing stuff in fields?

 I learned:
- how the tractor engines are actually made/food is grown and harvested
- what are the working conditions at a factory/collective farm
- what it is to work an 8-hour day (or night - we had 3 shifts)
- whether I could do that kind of work if needed (say, prevented from working as an engineer for having big mouth)
- whether I would want to do that kind of work (a worker was paid 1.5-2.5 times the salary of an engineer)
- what kind of people are working at the factory/farm
- what is involved in running a factory/farm

 I also unloaded freight cars on the railroad, worked as a draftsman, and probably few others.

 Those jobs I did were not apprenticeships - they did not have a goal of giving me expertise and speciality for life. Rather it served as invaluable life experience helping me extend my horizons. Also I made some money.

I'm not sure it would be a great idea having children operating a iron foundry or working in other heavy industry. I would imagine the accident rate would be quite high unless there was plenty of adult supervision.

 Common sense must be used by adults, as usual.

Isn't the idea behind education to allow children to learn enough so that they can have the wherewithall to choose what they want to be in later life?

 There are a lot of things one cannot possibly learn through theoretical studies. Also, you may know how something is made in general but you will never know if you would like to do that yourself, unless you see the real process.

If they spend all their time working on a field they won't be qualified to do anything else later on.

 Children have plenty of time in the summer or they could work some nights or weeknds. Also, if a child is not motivated to learn, his time is wasted. On the other hand he could go and work and then return to learning once he knows he wants it.

 I am not talking here about the government making children work, jut about the government not preventing them from work.

 miko

[2Slow]

"2 Slow:

I seriously hope that your fellow countryment think that your point of view is, marginal, extremist and utterly stupid. If you represent the view of the 'common man' in your country then God help us all.

Virtually every nation has porous borders, the US included. A few 'well placed nukes' would probably result in a world economic meltdown, a hithterto unprecedented spiral of violent retribution against innocent Americans in the US and abroad and scant sympathy from the rest of the planet."

Extremist?  Yes it is.  Pragmatic?  Yes.  Simple fact is, if we had nuked the anaconda valley everyone would have said, to themselves anyway, "Wow, they are serious!"

Don't go to a gun battle with a knife.  Once we used the nuke, the rest of them would have to figure they couldn't come to this battle, they only have knifes compared to our guns.

Yes we must be extreme.  We will not win the hardcases over with kindness or good will.  We must annihilate them.

[kappa]

The Final Solution, 2Slow??

Scary...

[maslo]

hehe its not solution kappa

he is only trying to bring some justice for extremists
he only said, that he consider extermist / terrorist acctions to be quite Ok from his point of view.

hey 2slow do you know 1941 movie ?

[miko2d]

2Slow: Yes we must be extreme.  We will not win the hardcases over with kindness or good will.  We must annihilate them.

 It's not the US operating doctirine to annihilate the hardcases with nuclear weapons.

 US operating doctirine is to annihilate the cities full of innocent civilians with nuclear weapons in order to make hardcases fill bad.

 miko

[maslo]

Originally posted by AKIron

To be more accurate, Afghanistan is looking to become an Islamic Republic, which may deny the whole democratic process.

can you be more accurate ?
What shouldnt be in Islamic republic, if it were non Islamic Rep.

and what kind of rep. should it be, when 90% of people are muslim whitch belive in Islam ?

[ravells]

Interesting life, you have had, Miko.

I really hope to meet you sometime.

Ravs