Author Topic: "Only in Finland"....  (Read 7724 times)

Offline mietla

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« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2004, 04:31:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by airguard
equal for all, is a fee for a "X" commiten crime let them pay 1 month pay of their income.
Cant be that hard to understand ?

if that gives somone a 200$ fee or a 2000$ fee it hurts them the same way.


we don't have misunderstanding, we just fundamentally disagree on a definition of fairness.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2004, 04:43:38 PM »
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Originally posted by straffo
In fact according to my perception it make the both systems interchangeable .

what did I win ?



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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #152 on: February 13, 2004, 02:35:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
I bet your wife and children would rather have you run over by a rich person than by a poor one.


Wouldn't do a difference.
This isn't US of A, where rich people gets sued for millions when they scratch someone.

Even in the way you see it, it would only be bad for the wealthy AFTER the worst has happened, otherwise they'd be merrily speeding until the **** happens.
Traffic laws are there to PREVENT the worst from happening.

Offline Tuomio

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« Reply #153 on: February 13, 2004, 07:28:29 AM »
When you hurt somebody, its more justified to have progressive fines that go to the victim.  This way the victim gets his revenge.

But when you overspeed, you do not hurt anybody, you usually just slightly raise the risk for causing an accident. Even if you drove around kindergarten 200mph for two days, it doesent mean you have harmed anyone or even have had any close calls. WHEN you cause accident and have done such reckless act, you should get your bellybutton jailed for years + big $$ fines for the victim.

State is not entity that can be hurt or have feelings, thus all that its entitled to is to receive compensation for the caused physical damage. Ie. costs of involving police officers.

As have stated, there is lots of other ways to punish somebody. ALL punishment actions have PREVENTING  consequenses. I dont think how much more rational punishment and prevention measure can be done against breaking the traffic laws, than suspending drivers licence + small fee and in extreme cases put behind bars.
Im all for suspending the licence from the very first violation, maybe just for day or two, it would mess your life a little. Then continous violations=months suspension, or in cases that the guy doesent care whether he has the licence or not, put him in jail.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #154 on: February 13, 2004, 07:39:54 AM »
Tuomio: But when you overspeed, you do not hurt anybody, you usually just slightly raise the risk for causing an accident.

 Subjecting someone to harm or to the risk of harm is the same when considered from the standpoint of rigts violation.

 Here is a great idea on how to address the risk. Let's say the speeding around kindergarten has a 0.001% risk of hurting two children.
 The offender is put in a special chamber in front of a wall where an acomputer-controlled weapon fires twice at random spots at the wall with a probability of hitting the offender of 0.001%.
 Before hand, they should be shown graphical pictures/videos of those actually shot and hit.
 That would cure most people of a desire to frivolously endanger others.

 An eye for an eye - an ege-old principle. Also fair and balanced.

 miko

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #155 on: February 13, 2004, 09:17:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tuomio
When you hurt somebody, its more justified to have progressive fines that go to the victim.  This way the victim gets his revenge.

But when you overspeed, you do not hurt anybody, you usually just slightly raise the risk for causing an accident. Even if you drove around kindergarten 200mph for two days, it doesent mean you have harmed anyone or even have had any close calls. WHEN you cause accident and have done such reckless act, you should get your bellybutton jailed for years + big $$ fines for the victim.
 


Thats just absurd.
The traffic laws are made in order to decrease and prevent the accidents.
I don't want people to drive recklessly, just waiting for the accident to happen.. I'd rather see traffic laws enforced and violaters punished if they break the laws, before something happens.

The risk also increases alot, not just slightly.
If you're speeding 80khp in area with 40-50kph limit, the risk really does increase by a noticeable amount, not just slightly.
Also, if you happen to drive over someone, the person would be almost surely dead, while if you would've obeyed the speed limits, you would either have avoided it or *much* less likely killed the person.

On highways, if theres 100kph limit and you're speeding +180kph in a typical car, you're much more likely to loose control of the car, the risk does increase alot.
When you loose the control, nobody knows where the car ends up and what gets in its way.
Higher the speed, more likely it is to loose control and have more catastrophic consequences if it hits someone elses car.

Public roads are not race tracks, nor do people drive race cars, which are also equipped approriately for racing and high speeds.

Offline Tuomio

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« Reply #156 on: February 13, 2004, 10:06:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Thats just absurd.
The traffic laws are made in order to decrease and prevent the accidents.
I don't want people to drive recklessly, just waiting for the accident to happen.. I'd rather see traffic laws enforced and violaters punished if they break the laws, before something happens.
 


YEs, but i wasnt advocating against traffic laws, but the punishment methods. Why have _cost_ for crime that does not cost anything for anybody?

Pre-crime arguments are very slippery slopes, i'm not comfortable with their logic. If the reason for traffic laws are to make people obey them, then why not just shoot everyone that breaks them? That would be equal and fairness is subjective term, so it could be taught as a fair punishment even.Now are we agreeing, that punishment should be based on the harm that the law breaking action causes? How does greater punishment for the rich fit in that reasoning?

People overspeeding should perhaps pay reasonable compensation for their insurance companies (yes that would make poor paying the same as rich, ie. 60% risk for accident would mean lots of $$$ and rightfully so). If the government acts as an insurance company, like in Finland it has health insurance monopoly, then they should use the risk based calculations for their tickets.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #157 on: February 13, 2004, 11:01:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
This isn't US of A, where rich people gets sued for millions when they scratch someone.


And yet thay pay $250,00 for a traffic ticket??? This is nore stupid that I thought. And it just confirm our initial suspicion that the real reason for it is extraction of money for the government.

You kill someone, no gain for the governemnt. Even if the victim's family sues the perp, all the money goes to them. Also, you do not kill someone every day.

So screw civil litigation

But, if you fine rich folks $250k a pop...

1. The money goes to the government
2. you can potentially catch the same dude the next day.

Governmental extorsion, pure and simple. They just dress it up is a egalitarian sugar coating and a sprinkle of class envy, and lookie. Socialist we eat it up any time.

BTW, you've mentioned that people who kill other in accident do not get sued. But why? This would be a civil action. The victim's family against the perp.

Is the government discuraging/blocking such action?
Not enough gready lawyers?
Uninformed public?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2004, 11:17:30 AM by mietla »

Offline Tuomio

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« Reply #158 on: February 13, 2004, 11:15:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
And yet that y pay $250,00 for a traffic ticket??? This is nore stupid that I thought.


Reasoning: It goes to the government, so it is for common good. If you sue and get $$$, invidual gets rich and that is not common good, its unequality and therefor bad.

:lol

ps. Yes i know what it sounds like and it IS just that. Not my mindset tho.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #159 on: February 13, 2004, 11:18:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tuomio
Reasoning: It goes to the government, so it is for common good. If you sue and get $$$, invidual gets rich and that is not common good, its unequality and therefor bad.

:lol

ps. Yes i know what it sounds like and it IS just that. Not my mindset tho.


That's exactly what I I was saying from the beginning. You've replied before I edited my post.

Common good, losers will buy that any time.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #160 on: February 13, 2004, 11:20:47 AM »
Tuomio,

You're probably the kind of driver who I don't like at all.. doesn't take others into count at all and just thinks some speeding doesnt hurt anyone, for they're great drivers!


Mietla,

Well.. how many times do I have to say I'm not quite up to 170k $ fines?

Anyhoo... this will probably be eventually about 20% of the original, like before.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #161 on: February 13, 2004, 11:24:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu

Mietla,

Well.. how many times do I have to say I'm not quite up to 170k $ fines?.


Does not matter, you've bought the principle, so from now it is only a number game.

I'm rejecting the principle, so I don't have to worry about the numbers.

Besides, since according to your reasoning the fine should depend on the income, why is $170k too much? It would obviously depend on a person, right? Bill Gates would be fined in tens of billions.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #162 on: February 13, 2004, 11:40:16 AM »
Another interesting observation.

To you

Common good = more money to the government

To me

Common good = less money for the government

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #163 on: February 13, 2004, 11:53:48 AM »
Tuomio:  It goes to the government, so it is for common good.

 So the more people get hurt, the more "common good". :)

If you sue and get $$$, invidual gets rich and that is not common good, its unequality and therefor bad.

 To get complete equality, whenever any citizen of Finland is hurt by a car, every citizen of Finland should get equally hurt. :D


 BTW, when you quote the views you do not share or even oppose, use this :rolleyes: icon or use qualifiers "allegedely" or "supposedely". It will help avoid misunderstandings in abcense of observable facial reactions.

 miko

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #164 on: February 13, 2004, 12:27:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mietla
Another interesting observation.

To you

Common good = more money to the government

To me

Common good = less money for the government


It's not mine nor goverments fault if someone speeding gets caught and fined.
Speeding was choice of the someone, who more than likely was and is aware how the system works.

If he wants to be driving recklessly, he should buy a race car and go drive it at the race tracks.
Especially if hes rich, it'd be no problem.

On the public roads, he should obey the common traffic laws, which are created for the safety of his and the others.
If he screws up, he might injure or kill others...

Would be no problem with me, if the only damage would happen to the driver himself.
Unfortunately it can often result in other casualties and blocked roads.

When the s*hit happens, its too late to fine anyone.
Depending on the casualties, money will not fix the damages, no matter how much someone could pay.
Too late.

The less the punishment is, the less they care whether they're speeding or not.