800 yard Spit V shots? You cannot be serious!

[beet1e]

Slap!  My wing didn't fall off - just the ailerons.

[Seeker]

Seeker - - but I don't think the AH gunnery is spot on.

Ah; but it is; look at your own yardstick: Bader.

Where we do have a huge advantage over RL is not gunnery; but the flight model; or better said the Air and Piliot model.

Firstly; there's no turbulence in AH; ever. No disturbed winds, no wake turbulence; no vortices making your gun platform shake and squirm.

Secondly, there's no forces acting on the pilot. I'm a good shot in the clay trap; but then I'm stood still and the gun and my arms are constant wieghts. If I had to shoot clay from inside a tumble dryer I'm sure I'd miss a couple.

It's not that AH models gunnery poorly; it's that it doesn't model some other factors which would tend to complicate the issue.

And to be honest a good many of the factors are psycological/physiological issues affecting the pilot that I don't think any sim could model.

True, there are some sims which nueter thier guns to the extent that one flies/shoots in an historical manner/range, but is that accurate modeling (IL-2 original springs to mind here)? Is that the way forward?

Wonder if HTC wil ever model the more advanced gunsights in use late war. That should make for some interesting whines

[beet1e]

Seeker

You're probably right, and you made some good points - lack of turbulence etc. That might well be one of the reasons pilots had to get close. I have no experience at clay pigeon shooting, but plenty of light aircraft experience, flying in the 2K - 4K levels, often near clouds. It was unusual to get a completely smooth flight - except over water, and there were times when I was bounced so hard it would have been like dropping a car from a foot off the ground.

I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with - netlag for one. And we need icons - though some guys like to think we don't!

But whereas the 800yd gunnery was acknowledged to be flawed in WB - so they changed it - we still have it in AH.

The Bader incident was, as I said, an extreme fluke. Which is why it became such a well known incident. It was a stray round that put a hole in an oil line, ie. not a concentrated stream that sheared a wing off.

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by beet1e
Seeker

(snip)I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with (snip)

Just one referense

Captain H. Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics (written in 1943): Shooting
"When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater". It is very nice to shoot from the rear sides, and from there you most often shoot the enemy down, too. You should shoot in front of the armour into the cockpit and engine. The lead is also so small that it'll give you no trouble at all. "

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by beet1e
Seeker

(snip)I know that we can't expect everything to be modelled realistically; the real pilots had turbulence, whereas we have our own set of problems to deal with (snip)

Just one referense



Captain H. Wind's Lectures On Fighter Tactics (written in 1943): Shooting
"When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater". It is very nice to shoot from the rear sides, and from there you most often shoot the enemy down, too. You should shoot in front of the armour into the cockpit and engine. The lead is also so small that it'll give you no trouble at all. "

[Batz]

h i z o o k a s

[Kweassa]

Some of the real crackshots may not notice the difference in AH2. But I don't have a stellar hit accuracy - about 6~8% average in the AH1 MA. And personally I feel AH2 gunnery is indeed harder than AH1. I see a lot of situations where I mistakenly fall inside 400~500 yards from a Spitfire, and still escape without being damaged. Were it AH1, it'd be highly probable that I'd have been shot down at those ranges.


 One of the reasons is the tracer is less visible, making it harder to 'walk' the rounds to the enemy over 500 yards.

 Also, the hit sprites are very hard to see over 500 yards - not many people are tempted to 'spray' with confidence, knowing that they're gonna hit the enemy, when you don't get a return info on whether you're succeeding or not.

 Just those two changes made it enough to make some people feel AH2 gunnery is harder. If we get rid of the ammo counters, I think it'd be pretty complete.

 ....


 Even in AH1, I don't think 800yard shots are common. What makes it a grueling experience is the only planes which are capable of putting in those long range shots, are those with multiple .50s or Hispanos. Other guns rarely ever get even lucky hits, over 500 yards.

 IMO, it's not the 800yard shots that people should be sick of. I think it's pretty rare a thing to happen.

 But rather, it's the average ranges where AH gamers confidently feel that they can get a kill, that should be brought up as a problem.

 You're chasing a bogey that is extending away from you slowly. He's at 400 yards. If he jinks hard, he's gonna be caught. So, he jinks and maneuvers lightly, trying to get away from you.

 Now, how many AH pilots can't shoot him down? I'm an average pilot. But I can shoot him down. If I have .50s or Hispanos, then I can most certainly shoot him down.

[Urchin]

So beetle... at what range should the rounds magically disappear?  

In real life, rounds didn't magically dissapear at 1,400 (and change) yards.  They kept going until they hit the ground.  

Don't get me wrong, I have beef with the damage modelling/ Hizooka in particular, but I don't think an occasional kill at extraordinary ranges is unrealistic at all.

[Karnak]

Another thing to note is that the rigidity of the gun mountings is not modeled.  That was a real problem with mounting Hispanos in the wings of the British fighters as it was designed to be mounted through the engine block of a fighter.  The increased rigidity of the fuselage mounting in the Mosquito reduced the diameter of the Hispano's hit pattern substantially.


BTW, not all bullets reach 1400 yards in AH.  The .303s don't even reach 1000 yards.  Not that it matters with .303s.

[beet1e]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Urchin, I don't think that the rounds should "magically disappear", but there is a limit to the effective range, at which the projectile's kinetic energy is exhausted, especially when dispersion is taken into account. Think of a shotgun - lethal at close range up to about 40 yards, but unlikely to kill a target at 60 yards, possibly harmless at 100-200 yards. I know that .50 cals and the like flew better than shot, but I have my doubts about the 800/1000/1200 yard range that we're seeing in AH1. In other online games like WB3, WW2OL and IL2 you have to get much closer than that...

[Batz]

Kweassa is correct that its not the rare 800 + yard kills that are an issue.

The average effective kill range in AH seems to be 400-500yrds. In other games, and supported by period training manuals and pilot anecdotes, it is bit long.

But what do I know.

I do know that in those games where gunnery is "harder" and requires you to be in close (when you think you are close enough, get in closer) to aim accurately that it makes for a lot more fun.

In AH some of the most fun is the 109e-4 vrs the Spit 1. Both sides have to close and fight for a killshot. Its particularly frustrating, and less fun, when your opponents guns easily outrange you. For example, the a6m2 vrs any 50 cal armed plane. These planes already have a speed advantage and with long range gunnery they never need to close in to aim better. You can spend an evening chasing umm in around the map.

But whatcha gonna do?

[WhiteHawk]

yea..id be interested to know the velocity  of a particular projectile at x feet fron the gun

[Urchin]

Well, someone'd have to post what the standard negative acceleration for just air resistance is, but it wouldn't be that tough.  

Velocity = Starting Velocity (at the muzzle) + Acceleration (in this case negative in the horizontal due to air resistance) * Time.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, someone'd have to post what the standard negative acceleration for just air resistance is, but it wouldn't be that tough.  

Velocity = Starting Velocity (at the muzzle) + Acceleration (in this case negative in the horizontal due to air resistance) * Time.

Plus relative hit velocity (for mg rounds at least)  so when you have worked out the TAS you deduct (or add if its head on) the velocity of the target.

Range v speed must be modelled in some way........I noted in the kadesh scenario that when two Me262's are at 500mph the relative gun range seemed to be radically reduced.

[Charon]

I know that .50 cals and the like flew better than shot, but I have my doubts about the 800/1000/1200 yard range that we're seeing in AH1. In other online games like WB3, WW2OL and IL2 you have to get much closer than that...

There might be a variety of environmental factors that skew the AH results, but in RL you qualify with a M-2 .50 at 800 and 1000 meters. Further, you typically have to hit the target in under a dozen rounds or so at this range using open sights. And even further, the targets the weapon is supposed to be effective against at that range are in the APC class, which are hardly tanks but they are hardly fragile WW2 fighter aircraft either.

Now, the ww2 aircraft .50 had less muzzle velocity, but not much less. And, even though there is wind and buffeting, etc. in WW2 combat there is also multiple weapons and a reflector gunsight.

IMO, most of the ".50 terror" some seem to have (never really been an issue for me, for whatever reasons) is the amount of practice an AH virtual pilot has with the AH weapons systems, a lack of minimal evasives at 500+ range among some targets, and an ability to see the 1 in 40 critical hit at these ranges (vs a single, no damage ping etc.) as the standard rather than the  exception.  Oh, and the ability to set convergence at 400+ yards which was beyond the typical practice for the era probably has something to do with it.

Charon