A world without the US

[Pei]

France becomes the ruling country of Europe by virtue of the "European Union". This is happening anyway, but the prospect of becoming the "Superpower" spurs France on with increased fervor.

Still trying to work out where you got this idea from. Despite all it's faults the EU cannot be dominated by one member country (for example the EU Constitution that France supported was derailed just recently). Now if you are talking about France, Germany and the UK together (which happens once in a blue moon) then that might be more like it, but even then you have the individual vetos of each country.

[Toad]

I think a case can be made that the Yom Kippur war changed the US/Israel relationship significantly. It was after that war that US aid to Israel truly skyrocketed. The United States quadrupled its foreign aid to Israel, and replaced France as Israel's largest arms supplier.

As to the US airlift in THAT war, US aid and the promise of further aid was probably THE key factor in Israeli survival.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/9589/edition_id/183/format/html/displaystory.html

Facing the worst battlefield losses in Israeli history, Prime Minister Golda Meir offered to leave her command post to fly to Washington to personally plead with President Nixon to resupply Israel.

That's when the promise came from the White House that helped Israel change the course of the war and began a process that forever altered relations between Jerusalem and Washington.

"The president has agreed -- and let me repeat this formally -- that all your aircraft and tank losses will be replaced," Secretary of State Henry Kissinger told the Israelis on Oct. 9, 1973.
The U.S. decision allayed some of Meir's fears and allowed Israel to send hundreds of additional tanks and planes into battle that were being saved in case of future losses.

Operation Nickel Grass

Overall, it appears that the American airlift had both substantive and psychological effects. The Israelis, who had begun to worry about how many shells they had left, were able to resume an extremely high rate of fire with the delivery of plentiful stocks of 105-, 155-, and 175-millimeter ammunition. With the influx of many of the consumables of war to replenish depleted stockpiles, they also were emboldened to throw all available reserves into the battle and succeeded in breaking through the Egyptian lines to the west side of the Suez Canal, threatening the bridgehead established by the Egyptians on the east side, and encircling the Egyptian Third Army.34 Psychologically, the Egyptians were shaken by this reversal of their military successes.

Another example of the impact of the airlift on the war was the effectiveness of the TOW and Maverick missiles. According to the Defense Intelligence Agency, these weapons were responsible for the majority of Israeli tank kills (Arab losses were estimated at 1,900 tanks during the war). Since the TOW and Maverick were not present in the Israeli inventory in any significant numbers before the war began, it is apparent that the missiles delivered by airlift the difference.35

[NUKE]

The Arabs are a piece of work. After the US supported Israel , they began the oil embargo.

Funny thing is ( reports recently by  British intelligence)  the US had plans to take over Saudi Arabia and Kuwaiit and secure the oil.

[Monk]

What exactly is purpose of US army at Rammstein ?

It's the Air force, but maybe you should ask the Burgermiester of Ramstein.

You probably didnt notice, that you can drive trough Europe from Belgia to Italy w/o any passport control and use 1 money in all states of western, central europe ?

Man, I didn't know that, cool.

[Nilsen]

Id like to post a serious answer to this post Capt Pork, but im afraid it would be bashed by someone regardless what i said.

I will dare to say this tho...

A world where the US would not butt in whatever the cause would be a world in deep sheit... The US is an important actor on the world stage.

A perfect world would be if the US and EVERY other nation in the UN would work TOGETHER to solve problems without resorting to lame retorics would be the best. (ie no i hate france whatever they say or i hate the US whatever they say or do)

This world is now as likley as free booze/dope for all  

Id like to say to 95% of the world leaders to..GROW THE **** UP !!

[Gixer]

China will take back Taiwan whether the US has a isolationist policy tand point or not. Militarily US dosn't have an over whelming force they can threaten China with if they invaded Taiwan.

Sending carriers would be dangerous as the Chinese have been developing the capability and forces sufficent for destroying a Carrier Battle Group for some time.

Militarily it's been one of their conventional strategic goals. They have Russian and their own developed missiles which travel at about mach 2 air launched it's about mach 3.0 and 1 hit is sufficent to take out a destroyer sized ship.




...-Gixer

[lasersailor184]

Actually, you'd have to take this back to ww2.  US doesn't get involved in Europe.


Russia takes over ***ALL OF EUROPE*** when they take over germany.  


Those who would have speaking german under the third reich are now speaking russian.


Where it could have gone from there is all up for debate.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, you'd have to take this back to ww2.  US doesn't get involved in Europe.


Russia takes over ***ALL OF EUROPE*** when they take over germany.  


Those who would have speaking german under the third reich are now speaking russian.


Where it could have gone from there is all up for debate.

US had nukes

[Nilsen]

Actually, even Stalin said before,and after the war that norway would not EVER be touched because of our long and good history with russia...

When you think about it, its wierd that we  joined NATO and didnt jon the russians after WW2

perhaps its our good relations with both the USSR and NATO that prevented alot of trouble between the USSR and NATO.

[Kanth]

There'd be alot more indians.

[Curval]

Googlicious post there Toad.  

Allow me to retort with one of my own:

Yom Kippur

On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), the holiest day on the Jewish religious calendar, Egypt and Syria took advantage of optimal circumstances to launch attacks that took Israel by surprise. So complete was the element of surprise that when war erupted, Israel was only beginning to mobilize the reserve forces which form the bulk of the IDF. The thin forces stationed along the two fronts had to contain the invading armies until the IDF was prepared to meet them in force. The IAF was hampered by the dense anti-aircraft missile system which the enemy had deployed close to the front. Egyptian forces succeeded in crossing the Canal and establishing beachheads on the Israeli-held east bank. On the Golan Heights, the Syrians pushed past the cease-fire lines and occupied a large area. They also seized the key Israeli intelligence- gathering position high on Mt. Hermon.
 
Within two days, the IDF, now fully deployed, blocked the Egyptian and Syrian advances and took the offensive. Because of the huge quantitative superiority of the Syrian forces, a situation compounded by the proximity of Jewish settlements on the Syrians' path of advance, it was decided to give priority to the northern front. By October 10, the Syrians had been pushed back and the entire Golan was again in Israeli hands, except for the Hermon position, which was only recaptured toward the end of the war. Between October 11 and October 14, the IDF pushed the Syrian forces across the cease-fire lines and penetrated Syrian territory. An Iraqi expeditionary force dispatched to reinforce the Syrians was also successfully blocked.    


 
On the southern front, an early Israeli counter-offensive failed. But Israeli units managed to overcome an attack by Egyptian tank forces, destroying 200 enemy tanks in the process. Shortly afterward, on 15 October, the IDF renewed the counter-offensive. The main thrust of the fighting now was to push across the Canal and strike at Egyptian forces on the other side.

-------------------------------

I'm not saying the airlift didn't help...not at all.   But "key factor in Israeli survival" is going a bit far.  Notice this link states that within 2 days the Israelis had blocked the Egypitians and Syrians and were on the offensive.

[Shuckins]

Here are a couple of bones to gnaw on...

First, would the Arab nations have launched the Yom Kippur War if they had NOT been receiving massive amounts of military hardware and training from the Soviet Union?

Second, if the United States had not sent aid to the Israelis, and the Arabs had emerged triumphant in that struggle, what do you think would have happened to the Israelis?

Third, if the United States pulled back its forces and went isolationist democratic governments around the world would find themselves much more vulnerable to subversion.  Genocide would become more prevalent.  

Lastly, for those of you who still believe that the absence weapons of mass destruction negates our presence in Iraq, go to google and look for information about the mass graves of Iraq.  There is one site with photographic evidence that is being gathered by an international human rights group.  If you can still say that Saddam was none of our business then it is safe to assume that you have learned nothing from the history of the twentiety century.

Shuckins

[Kieran]

Curval, you have not refuted my quote WRT the aid the US sent at such a critical time. The fact you either left it off of your quote or it isn't included does not negate it did happen, nor would the military action of the IDF have proceeded at the same pace (as illustrated by Toad) if the aid had not been forthcoming. The fact the US did send the aid was a clear shot over the bow for the world that we were taking a vested interest in democracy in Israel. That cannot be denied.

Actually, the whole thing is so common sense I don't know how you guys can be arguing against it.

[Nilsen]

Whatever you fellas fight about, the only thing that actually works is cooperation and a mutual agreement on whats acceptable and whats not. France, US, Germany and norway for that matter are all in basic agreement on what can, and can't be done.

Everyday that goes by with the nations not agreeing with one another is one more day that the terrorists are winning.

[Toad]

Curval, they were just about out of ammo.

Google this, buddy. (BTW, just because one googles, it doesn't mean one would not otherwise know or have previously known the material. It's just a lot simpler to let somebody else do the write up and clip it.)

The first C-5 (Tail No. 00461) to land at Lod touched down at 22:01 Zulu. It carried 97 tons of 105 mm howitzer shells, and it arrived at a time when Israeli forces were down to their last supplies of ammunition.

Another 829 tons would be delivered in the next 24 hours. Even as Israeli workers unloaded those first cargo airplanes, huge formations of Israeli and Egyptian armor, maneuvering just 100 miles to the southwest, were locked in a desperate tank battle that would prove to be the largest clash of armor since the World War II Battle of Kursk.
 

Now tie the "largest clash of armor since the World War II Battle of Kursk." in with the previously posted assessment "Another example of the impact of the airlift on the war was the effectiveness of the TOW and Maverick missiles. According to the Defense Intelligence Agency, these weapons were responsible for the majority of Israeli tank kills (Arab losses were estimated at 1,900 tanks during the war). Since the TOW and Maverick were not present in the Israeli inventory in any significant numbers before the war began, it is apparent that the missiles delivered by airlift the difference."

C-5' unloading TOW and Mavericks 100 miles from the "largest clash of armor since the World War II Battle of Kursk". These missiles were "not present in the Israeli inventory in any significant numbers before the war began".


Oh, one other thing:

The arriving MAC airplanes were greeted ecstatically by the Israelis. The crews received red-carpet treatment. Israel put in place a system to expedite cargo handling; materiel unloaded from the transports usually were at the front in Syria in about three hours and in the Sinai in less than 10 hours.

Key factor? You bet your rump roast. Obviously the Israelis thought so. They sure hustled that cargo up to where it was NEEDED.

Read all the history. The Israelis came with in a hair of losing it all before they got their reservists to the front. They turned the tide with the reservists and got back on the offensive. (Did you know some of the Reserve units were equipped with pretty much "stock" WW2 Shermans? Think about that.) BUT THEY WERE RUNNING OUT OF AMMO, not to mention tanks and aircraft. That "offensive" couldn't have lasted very long without ammo, could it?