Author Topic: canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..  (Read 5154 times)

Offline CyranoAH

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canadian professors gun study...large cut/paste..
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2004, 05:16:56 AM »
I once got bitten by a hamster.

It was a nasty bite.

I wish I had been armed then.

Take precautions. It could happen to you as well.

Daniel

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2004, 08:41:43 AM »
beetle... you are getting the answers... you just don't like em.   If we coulds suddenly send about 10% of our hand picked population to spain or england and then magicly turn into a tiny island isolated from everyone then.... you would understand.   you would have the carjackings and robberies and... all the sheep would be treated the same... except... you would be robbed according to how helpless you appeared (easy) and/or how much potential reward there was for the new imigrants.

We would have little or no crime and still have our firearms.   Now... if, to solve your problem, you allowed concealed carry... the new imigrants would no longer target citizens cars unless they were desperate or felt sure there was no firearms about... the rental cars you show pictures of would then become laughably targeted... the signs would come off in a week.

remember... what happens here happens there in a couple of decades... you are just behind.   that should be obvious to anyone.

even so... I wouldn't give up what we have to be like europe..  no matter how safe you guys feel between wars.

lazs

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2004, 08:54:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
remember... what happens here happens there in a couple of decades... you are just behind.   that should be obvious to anyone.


Smells bait. Rotten. Swims away.

Daniel

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2004, 08:56:37 AM »
cyrano... spain may be more than a "few" decades behind... be patient.    Seems your populace has been armed from time to time tho.

lazs

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2004, 08:59:58 AM »
Wiggling the bait ain't gonna make it any more appealing. Give up.

Daniel

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2004, 05:57:09 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... you are getting the answers... you just don't like em.  
The problem is that they're not answers to the question I asked.

The gun card is being way overplayed in the case regarding the armed villains' targeting of folks driving rental cars in Florida. Guns are like a god to you guys, and are worshipped in the same way that some people worship their god. Something bad happens? It's not the fault of the gun/the god - guns don't kill people, only people do that - God's will and all that. Something good happens - like retagging of rental cars? All glory to God and the hallowed gun! Guns be praised! They're saving tourists' lives in Florida because the villains no longer know who is who, who has a gun and who does not. :):aok

Of course, it's bollocks. What those villains were after was tourists. Why? Because if they've just arrived from overseas they're likely to be carrying large sums of cash, credit cards and other monetary instruments. US Rental cars are not used solely by tourists. They're also used by Americans - businessmen doing business more than 1000 miles from home for example. And an American businessman, having heard about the way occupants of rental cars were being targeted, would have armed himself against that threat, wouldn't he? Or are you about to tell me that you're not allowed to carry guns on an airliner on a flight within the US, even if it's in your checked luggage along with your nail scissors and other sharp objects? If it's so vitally important to be armed, why's that then?

Of course, a rental car being driven away from an airport location is a good place for a villain to look for rich and easy pickings in the form of a confused foreign tourist. But such a car is no less likely to be driven  (if you guys are to be believed) by an armed American.

Which brings us back to European rental cars, many of which can be seen driving around with those bright orange rental car signs. Steve claims that everyone is an equal target. I say that's bollocks for the reasons given above: Those cars are driven almost exclusively by tourists, many of whom will be carrying wallets, cash, credit cards. A far better prospect for a criminal than a beat up old Peugeot or Seat driven by a local resident of modest means.

...and yet, despite the orange signs, those cars are not being targeted by armed criminals.

So why's that then?
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remember... what happens here happens there in a couple of decades... you are just behind. that should be obvious to anyone.
I agree entirely. Which is why, when you described the typical American police shootout, I said I would leave Britain when that happens here. Note - WHEN, not IF. When Britain's problem with guns gets as bad as the situation in America, it will be time to leave.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2004, 08:51:34 AM »
beetle... not only did we answer your question but.... yu did yourself..  people with very little and very little stake in the society they are in will resort to violent crime in large numbers.   We happen to be bordered (porous no passport borders) with many of them in a vibrant free country with a lot of wealth floating around.

I say it is worth it.   But.. reserve the right to defend myself in such a society.   You say that when things get too violent you will simply run.   I am a furballer... I love the game/country.   I won't run... no real reason to.  It's not tha tbad if you take a few precautions.  the rewards are great.  

conversely... I would have run from your countryu long ago.. the reasons would have been a stagnant society and economy with very restrictive taxation and personal freedom laws.   we run from different things.

now... your point.. if all the people are sheep they will all be treated pretty much equally.   florida had carjackings of every type... not just tourists.   when more sensible right to carry laws were passed the carjackers were afraid to do their work on florida citizens so they targeted those who have no rights.  those in rental cars.

but to make it even more simple for you.... carjacking on a little island or tiny country is not your criminals favorite thing is all... they prefer to channel their energy towards burglaries of homes while the owner is cowering in a locked room or pickpocketing or strongarm or stealing everything that isn't bolted down... not sure , no.... positive... that is not an improvement.... me not being able to defend against such thugs is the real ballbuster tho.   time to exit your country after the double decker tour with all my valubles tied to my body.
lazs
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 08:54:54 AM by lazs2 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2004, 10:06:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
now... your point.. if all the people are sheep they will all be treated pretty much equally.   florida had carjackings of every type... not just tourists.   when more sensible right to carry laws were passed the carjackers were afraid to do their work on florida citizens so they targeted those who have no rights.  those in rental cars.
LOL Lazs! What a load of bollocks. :lol Are you saying that an armed American businessman has no rights if he's driving a rental car? Are you saying that if a criminal shoots and kills a man on the street that the criminal will be exonerated if it turns out the victim was a non-US citizen? :lol

It's posts like the above that make me wonder if you're suffering the long term effects of substance abuse! But maybe you were just having one of your tongue-in-cheek moments.

Not running from England - just considering one of the choices that is available to me. The taxes in Spain are a lot lower, by the way. And the weather is nicer. :cool: And tourists can feel safe in rental cars with big orange signs. :D

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2004, 03:11:11 PM »
beetle... not sure what your point is.   thought I was clear enough... when the locals in florida betgan to carry concealed the carjackers went with the best odds... they went to the rental cars because they knew the chance of finding one with armed occupants was slight compared to other cars.

the fear of incarceration is the same for U.S. or non U.S. citizens but.... maybe somewhat less if the victim can't even speak english or.... is dead.

Your country is oppressive in many ways.   You feel it in the taxation.  I feel it in the lack  personal freedom and lack of competition for my dollar.   the taxation is also a factor for me.   Also... I don't like the weather or being on an island.  

Here... there is some danger but I don't mind... I mind the nannying  I will most likely leave Ca. when I retire but only to go to another less populated and less restrictive state.   Having the mexican border so close and so porous is both a blessing and a curse... love the change of pace... don't mind the danger but hate the exported crime, poverty and socialism.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2004, 03:39:57 PM »
Lazs - meanwhile in Europe there are no armed attacks on rental cars with big orange signs, and few armed attacks anywhere. There are a few carjackings. The gun control laws work well but are not perfect, and there are a few loonies with guns. You'll know all about that, living in the US...

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2004, 06:33:41 PM »
Uhm just how the right to bear arms could have stopped ETA bombings in Spain?

Oh, and about 9/11... they wouldn't have box cutters, they just have to steal one from a passenger and ask politely for the rest of them while aiming at the head of the pilot.

No use arguing over this... but don't stop just because of me. I'll step aside and watch.

Daniel

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2004, 10:21:04 PM »
The authors of the study attribute the decrease in crime in the us to the increased availablility of guns. But its really attributed to the increased availability of abortions.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2004, 10:38:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The authors of the study attribute the decrease in crime in the us to the increased availablility of guns. But its really attributed to the increased availability of abortions.


Really? I think that every abortion other than for saving the life of the mother is a crime, therefore the increase in abortions means to me that there is more crime.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2004, 03:35:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
beetle, europe has plenty of armed attacks just maybe not quite as many with firearms.  when the IRA or basque separatist (ETA)freedom fighters decide to set off a bomb somewhere what would you call that?  can anyone say aldo moro?  what would have occurred on the ill fated 9/11/01 flights when those pieces of shiite pulled their box cutters if let's say, laz was in a seat with a perfectly legal weapon in his possession.  that's why i haven't flown commercially in over a decade, that's why I will not return to europe.  I will die one day from some cause, but it won't be from lack of something to shoot back with.
Storch, we've had problems with the IRA for years, Spain has had problems with ETA. I wasn't talking about bombs etc., as these are not usually deployed against rental cars, which is what I was talking about. Lazs would make a very good sky marshall. :)

I'm sorry to know that the world's troubles have put you off commercial flying, thereby ruling out a visit to Europe. I have a different philosophy in life. I'm not going to stop flying because of various isolated air crashes. Life is not without risk, whether that involves crossing a road, going to the bank, or commercial flying. I just get on with it because I refuse to cancel the rest of my life.

Since you mention Lazs and weapon in the same sentence, I should point out that even Lazs feels safe, unarmed, in a seedy part of London. Safer, possibly, than in his own home, where he feels the need to be armed.

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"A fellow flight sim guy took me to a bar in a seedy part of london that was supposedly risky.. I felt about in as much danger as I would at a church bingo nite..."  - Lazs, 26th September, 2002.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2004, 08:23:53 AM »
my point on feeling safe in london was that I am able bodied and street smart and that your clubbers were not of the same desperate criminal type as ours..  in london I allways felt that someone was looking for a way to steal from me tho... different countries with different crime.   If I dropped you off in some of the black or mex areas I think you would see my point.... all of my points actually.  

.

It will catch up to you.   as for being armed working or not....  It isn't about absolutes it is about improvement and options... it is also about personal freedom and rights.   There is no precaution that I can take that will make me 100% safe..  There are things I can do to make things safer for me..  None of the things that I feel are effective in making me safe have anything to do with cell phones or banning things.

I would rather have our vibrant and free but somewhat dangerous country than yours anyday.   The thought of not being able to shoot a burglar is unacceptable to me.   The thought of my country telling me that I can't be trusted with a firearm is unaceptable to me.  I do not want to live on a tiny little island like england or japan surrounded by sheep to feel safe... not worth it... Would rathe take the chance of maybe dodging a bullet once or twice ina lifetime rather than live in constant fear I will be pickpocketed or strongarmed or have to hide in my room while the burglar union has a couple of it's members ransack my home

lazs