Author Topic: Ta152 is ...  (Read 1915 times)

Offline Urchin

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2001, 11:14:00 PM »
Well, I suppose I'll throw my 'eloquent' arguement in.  I believe the 152's cost should be reduced to put in in line with the F4U-1C.  The planes were produced in similar numbers (200 for the C-Hog, high 100's for the 152).  Before the Niki was 'nuetered', it was the most common plane in the arena.  That plane was also comparitively rare in real life, although I've forgotten the exact production numbers (I believe it was somewhat less than 400 produced, but I could be off here and I don't feel like looking it up).  

So what it boils down to for me is the issue of HOW planes are perked.  If you base it on production numbers, there is no basis for the Ta-152 being so much more expensive than the C-Hog.  So for me at least, there is no real evidence supporting a policy of perking a plane because of its production numbers in real life.  

That leaves only one thing that would be a realistic approach, and that is how the aircraft perform in the Main Arena.  I believe this is probably how HTC decides the perk cost of a plane.  Look at the Me-262.  It is perked at 200 points for a very good reason.  That plane is so superior to every other plane we have (at any altitude) that an unperked 262 would run rampant over the MA.  People who think that 95% of people wouldn't be in a 262 if it was not perked are, frankly, delusional.  So in this case, performance matches the perk cost (in my opinion).  The Ta-152 is an awesome fighter at 30k and up.  I'm not contesting that fact.  The P-51B is the second fastest plane in the game (minus the jets).  So why doesn't it see more use?  Because it hits that 450+ mph at 40k, and nobody flies up there.  Same thing with the Ta-152.  It is probably the best prop fighter we have at 30k and up... except all you are doing is stargazing because there isn't anyone up there to fight.  Yes, there are the stratobuff B-17 pilots that cruise around at 35k... but why in the name of God would you risk 30 perks going up after something that has an even money shot at killing you?

Under 25k, the Bf109-G10 and the Fw190-D9 are FAR superior to the 152.  I'm not even convinced that the 152 turns better than the Dora does to be honest, but I don't fly the 152 very often.  Under 10k, where 95% of the action is, there are so many planes that are better than the 152 it would be hard to list them.  I'll try anyway though.  109G10, 109G2, 190D9, P51D, P51B, La7, La5, Yak9U, F4U (all versions), P47 (arguably),P38, Typhoon, Tempest.  I'd even list the 190A5 and A8 as superior to the 152 under 10k, but I can get a lot out of those planes.  I believe all but 2 of those planes can turn better than the 152.  At least half of them are as fast as the 152.  At least half of them have better acceleration.  All but 1 can outclimb the 152 (to the best of my knowledge).  The 109G10, 190D9, La7, yak9,P51,typhoon, and tempest are better than the 152 in all of the above- which makes fighting them a rather dicey proposition (especially considering all but the Tempest are free, while you are spending 30 points).  

So, in my opinion at least, there really isn't enough evidence to support a perking of the Ta-152 based on its performance vis a vis other prominant late war planes.  However, all that said, it IS Hitechs game, not ours.  It is his decision on which planes see use and what planes don't.  His motives may be unscrutable as a God's, but he does have the right to do whatever the hell he wants with his game.  

As a side note, I'm also curious as to the over-expensive perking (in my opinion) of the F4U-4.  Me-262 and Tempest seem pretty much spot on (although I wouldn't be surprised to see a drastic decrease in Tempest usage because of the introduction of the 262), but the Ta-152 and F4U-4 just seem out of whack if you try to use the other perk planes to compare them to.

Offline Sachs

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2001, 12:14:00 AM »
Bring it down to the Chog level.  I have shot down 2 this tour and by pure luck 1 in a G-10 he tried to run was cuaght easily, the other i was in a dora same alt i just turned and got behid him.  The 152 is not that great of a plane, yes maybe at high alt , but how many dogfights happen at 25k +?  Perk it to Chog level to try it out, what could it hurt?

Offline Kieran

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2001, 06:15:00 AM »
I think you can find a lot of agreement on adjusting the value. Removing the perk? I'm not really for that. I believe there needs to be a few carrots out there if the perk system is going to function properly.

You need to realize too that no perk value is going to make that plane what it isn't- a dogfighter. Lowering the value only makes it disposable.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
The TA-152 is awesome as a dogfighter.

Most people flying the TA fly it timidly like newly born kittens, rarely venturing below 20k.

Even below 10k, the TA is a remarkable plane. It's the turnfighter of the LW, but it cal also B&Z amazingly well. Acceleration in dives is phenomenal.

Granted, amongst perked planes, it's not fantastic. Low and mid altitude performance isn't exceptionally good, and some non perked planes beat it.

Still, first of all, it will get the enemy low, if you're low. With the big "shoot me!" sign, people are tempted into attacking it, which sets them up nicely for your friends. F4U's try to turn fight it - and the TA can handle its own.

Compared to a 190A5, it absolutely rocks. I think the current perk value is pretty good, all thins considered. Of course, I have little idea of what the F4u4 or Tempest cost, but I'd imagine they'd be more expensive because of their performance.

Low alt dogfights - the TA will serve well. Weakness is the huge wings which are a little weak at times, not stellar top speed at low alt, and some odd near stall flying characteristics.

I love the TA-152.

Offline J_A_B

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2001, 07:19:00 AM »
I'm not so convinced that the F4U-4/Tempesst are too expensive.  I think most people are just saving up for a 262.

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Offline Seeker

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Any one have a production figure for the Tempest?

Offline Karnak

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
Tempest MkV Series 1 (armed with 4 20mm Hispano MkII cannon): 100 built
Tempest MkV Series 2 (armed with 4 20mm Hispano MkV cannon): 705 built
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Offline Seeker

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« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2001, 08:30:00 AM »
Thanks!

So roughly twince as many Temps as C hogs, and around a hundred times as many Temps as Ta's, right?

Bring the Tempest to Aces High!

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2001, 08:41:00 AM »
Ta152H: 3 prototypes
Ta152H-0: 20 pre-production aircraft
Ta152H-1: 1 prototype and 12 production aircraft
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Offline Am0n

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« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2001, 08:42:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Tell me of another plane in the arena that can do that?  The P-51?  No way.. guns are too anemic.  The G-10 or Dora?  Nope... nowhere near the range... nor e retention over 30k.  What other plane?  The Tempest with its 4 hispanos?  Nope... not even going to make it over 30k before running out of fuel.

Easy p47-30.


I think for the most part these guys dont see the 152 because they dont fly over 10k.

It should be a perked ride, but not so many perks, same for a few others.

Offline Tac

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2001, 10:50:00 AM »
Deja, 51 guns are not anemic. And it has far more range than the dora. I think you bounced someone who didnt know how to fight up high.

As far as what other planes can,

P51
P47
P38 (range with dt's and if it stays above 25k).

Offline AKDejaVu

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Tac.. against a buff.. they are anemic.  The time you have to spend in range of their .50's makes it a tough job above 30k.

And Amon... you can get a P47-D30 over 30k, but you sure as hell can't keep it there long enough to make repeated high speed passes on a B-17.  Eventually, you'd have to be coming in from below.

And for both... I've always maintained the Ta-152 was too expensive... even started a couple of threads about it (and the F4u-4)... but the original post in this thread said "but I cant find any reason to have it perked in our MA"

AKDejaVu

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2001, 03:48:00 PM »
AK is right, the 47 is good up high, but if the buff knows what it's doing you will wind up in low chase if you miss the first pass. A 35K B17 is a scary thing to a P-47.

Offline streakeagle

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
I don't fly the Ta152 enough to comment on its perk value (though based on La-7 performance I suspect it should be handled the same: no perk cost). I don't think an overwhelming number of people would fly it, and the ones that did would not be so successful as to ruin the game for everyone else. HtH reveals what most people prefer and what dominates: 109G10, La7, Tempest, and 262 for BnZ, SpitIX for TnB (for some reason I hardly see the N1K anymore, the A6M5 is more common). Note: in the unrestricted environment of HtH where the Tempest and 262 are permitted to be flown, equal numbers of 109G10, La7, and SpitIX can be found.

More importantly, I am seriously questioning why production numbers have anything to do with arguments about perk points in a non-historical arena? If a plane in the set doesn't dominate the arena why should it be perked? If an airplane's qualities or history make it so much more popular than other planes that it statistically "dominates" the arena, should it be perked because it is popular? Like many people said before, if you always perk the most popular plane, pretty soon all of the planes will be perked  ;)

I understand play-balance and fun since that is what the MA is all about. I don't understand any arguments based on history or realism since I am constantly reminded by other posts how many other more realistic considerations should be ignored in the "Main Arena" based on play-balance and fun. I reccommend posting any comments about production numbers and perks in the CT topic area  :p

The Ta152 perk cost doesn't really bother me either way, but for the sake of others who would enjoy it more, please reduce the cost or unperk it until it proves to be more dominant than the other 3 to 5 unperked planes that already dominate the arena.
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Offline Urchin

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Ta152 is ...
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
Ta152H: 3 prototypes
Ta152H-0: 20 pre-production aircraft
Ta152H-1: 1 prototype and 12 production aircraft


I'd like to have a source on that Karnak, if you don't mind.  The only source I have readily available is from the internet, which states this.  


 
Quote
Approximately 150 Ta 1252H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the final abandoning of production with the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant. No Jagdgruppen ever completely converted to the type, but several Jagdstaffeln operated the Ta 152H alongside the Fw 190D and other types.  

Here is the link to the webpage:http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html#RTFToC1