Author Topic: Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars  (Read 1557 times)

Offline Skuzzy

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2004, 02:29:57 PM »
Did I say anything about other settlements not being viable?  No, I sure did not.  I did not misrepresent anything you said.  I stated my thoughts on the overall topic.  You chose to take them personally.

We were talking about the moon and I believe the thread is titled something to that effect.  For any permanent settlement in space, it would be wise to hammer out all the issues, or as many as possible using the moon.
That is why I think the moon is a good idea.  But you never asked why I thought it would be viable.

EDIT:  I run pretty quick Cyrano :D
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2004, 03:15:02 PM »
Skuzzy: Did I say anything about other settlements not being viable?  No, I sure did not.  I did not misrepresent anything you said.  I stated my thoughts on the overall topic.  You chose to take them personally.

 You said to me "You can stay here miko." What is that supposed to mean? What does your "general though" have to do with anyhing I previously said?

I stated my thoughts on the overall topic. You chose to take them personally.

 My name here is miko, so it was directed to me personally. Stating thoughts on overal topics never involves suggestion to specific people on where they can stay all of a sudden.

 If I said "You can cheat on your wife, Skuzzy. I would be happy to stay faithfull to mine.", you would hardly treat it as a general statement. You would demand to know why I am implying that you would cheat on your wife. You would not swallow my excuse that I am just walking around advising everyone that they can cheat on their wives with my blessing.

We were talking about the moon and I believe the thread is titled something to that effect.

 I addressed a specific person about a specific plan to use the moon as a staging point for space settlement and spread of humanity.
 I have no objections to anyone confining his progeny to existance as freaks huddling in a moon cave for its one sake.

For any permanent settlement in space, it would be wise to hammer out all the issues, or as many as possible using the moon.

 90% of issues that would need to be hammered on the moon would never occur in space in the first place. Wrong gravity. Energy source. Energy storage. Mineral recovery by melting the whole asteroids with huge mirrors. High-gravity (spin-induced) separation. Mineral delivery. Gravirty-free manufacturing.  All those are either specific to the moon or impossible there.


That is why I think the moon is a good idea.  But you never asked why I thought it would be viable.

 Why should I ask? Why should you need asking?
 I explained my opinion here in quite a detail why moon as a stepping stone to space - "hammering out range", if you want - is unviable and inefficient. I raised pretty specific technical and biological issues - not character slurs on anyone.
 I posted my arguments and that implies an invitation to address them and refute them. Instead you accused me of wanting to stay back and implied my small-mindendess.

 Anyway, Skuzzy, here it goes, easy to digest:

 I really want to get to space.
 I do not care about settling on a moon for it's own sake. I would not mind using the moon as a stepping stone but I think it is a very bad idea. I have listed my technical and biological arguments.
 I do not mind my progeny becoming more capable but not less capable physically or mentaly than we are. Living connected to a life-support machinery is out.

 Would you please examine all of them and explain what is wrong with them and why settlement of the moon would be beneficial?
 I am asking you why you think it would be viable despite all the inherent technical and biological problems.


BlckMgk: Nano Tech looks promising... Maybe even surgery of some sort. I say think out side the box..

 That's sounds like a plan.
 Fair warning though - I am raising my children to treat any animals they would not procreate with as food. :)

 miko
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 03:18:47 PM by miko2d »

Offline Skuzzy

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Lets Base From The Moon And Land On Mars
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2004, 03:46:02 PM »
Touchy touchy.

I agree that there are hurdles to overcome.  Never argued with that.  A power source for the moon is not too difficult.  Steam generators.  Provide the water, the generators and let the sun have at it.  Short term outages can be backed up by batteries, which are charged by the generators.
I agree that going to the moon for the sake of going there is wrong.  It should be a stepping stone.
I disagree with the asteroid belt approach as the risks are too high.  The moon is close enough to make rescue a viable option.  Something, unforseen, happen at the belt, and we can kiss them all good bye.

The purpose of the Moon, in my opinion, is to get to Mars and colonize it.  If we can survive on the Moon and overcome the hurdles, Mars will be a bit easier.  I see the Moon as a launch platform.  Not really needing to be fully manned all the time.  A good place to test materials and structural design.  Manned by a temporary staff which is rotated out periodically.

Better gravity at Mars, and some level of atmosphere available make it a better place to colonize.
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Offline hawker238

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« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2004, 04:02:33 PM »
Miko, to say we shouldn't do something because its too hard now is just ridiculous.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2004, 04:23:37 PM »
Skuzzy: I agree that there are hurdles to overcome.  Never argued with that.

 But we want to do stuff with current or shortly-available technology, not science-fiction, right?

A power source for the moon is not too difficult.  Steam generators.  Provide the water, the generators and let the sun have at it.

 What do you do with the hot steam afterwards? Vent it like the old steam locomotives? You would lose much more water this way than it takes to manufacture water in the first place. Have you ever heard about Carnot cycle? Can you imagine how enourmous the amount of energy you would have to dissipate? Have you ever seen those huge cooling towers next to the powerplants, cooling the water by heating the surroundng air? Or the small rivers heated to uncomfortably-warm temperature even in the winter in the power-plant heat-exchangers?
 In fact the heat generated by human bodies and internal equiplent of the cave-dvellers would be a huge problem. Can't use air-conditioner, can't open windows to let the fresh breeze in....
 What is the heat-conductivity of the lunar soil? You would not be able to dump heat anywhere else.

 In space you will be able to spread a miles-wide metallic screens in the shadow of the main solar-collector to radiate the excess heat. Not on the moon.


Short term outages can be backed up by batteries, which are charged by the generators.

 Right. The short-term outage on the moon lasts about two weeks, since the moon rotates around its axes once every 28 days or so.
 Would you care to estimate how many thousands tons of batteries you would need to store energy requirement of a small industrial city and artificial farm for about two weeks?

I disagree with the asteroid belt approach as the risks are too high.  The moon is close enough to make rescue a viable option.  Something, unforseen, happen at the belt, and we can kiss them all good bye.

 Moon is small. Mars is bigger. There will be scarcity of resources. Tehre will be geographically-based states, there will be conflict and war. Forever.

 The belt is huge, the mineral and energy resources are unlimited for all practical purposes. The surface area for human habitation can be manufactured almost indefinitely.
 The political conflict is impossible because any group that disagrees with another or believes itself oppressed would just disconnect their private habitat modules from the rest and go attach to those who's values they share.
 Only belt and further settlements (Kuiper belt, Saturn rings) would guarantee the humanity prosperous existence free from conflicts.

 Of course the people staying on Earth and Mars and Moon will be set in their old, political, oppressive ways, not being able to resolve conflicts without oppression, not sharing the concepts of freedom. They will certainly try to exert their influence on the belt settlements with force.
 So we would have to nuke all them cave-dvellers at the first opportunity. :)


hawker238: Miko, to say we shouldn't do something because its too hard now is just ridiculous.

 No. I am saying we shouldn't do "something" because it's stupid and useless.
 Going to space via moon is like going from New York to Boston via China.
 
miko

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2004, 04:44:34 PM »
But we want to do stuff with current or shortly-available technology, not science-fiction, right?

Of course technology needs to be developed for an endeavor of this magnitude.  I had pretty much thought that would be a safe assumption.

In fact the heat generated by human bodies and internal equiplent of the cave-dvellers would be a huge problem. Can't use air-conditioner, can't open windows to let the fresh breeze in....
 What is the heat-conductivity of the lunar soil? You would not be able to dump heat anywhere else.


Same as the generators.  Use the dark side of the moon to dissipate the heat.  Pump the coolant back to the structures.  As a matter of fact, placing the structures on the periphery of the dark side would help mediate the temperatures.

Right. The short-term outage on the moon lasts about two weeks, since the moon rotates around its axes once every 28 days or so.
 Would you care to estimate how many thousands tons of batteries you would need to store energy requirement of a small industrial city and artificial farm for about two weeks?


Two generator stations.  One for each side of the Moon.

Moon is small. Mars is bigger. There will be scarcity of resources. Tehre will be geographically-based states, there will be conflict and war. Forever.

I am not going to play the 'what if' political game.  You can plug variables into that equation all day long and come up with widely varied results.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2004, 05:03:31 PM »
Missed one:

The power generation system can be consisted of two opposing systems with one on each side of the Moon.
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2004, 05:10:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
You would not be able to dump heat anywhere else.
 


You could use the heat to extract some of the valuable minerals on the Moon, such as Titanium! :)
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2004, 05:16:04 PM »
Protecting the power generation system would be more difficult than the generation of power.  That could be offset with redundant systems located a good distance apart.
Planning to be able to run with only one power generation system, while others could be repaired should do the trick.

Dissipation of heat is not an issue.  The dark side of the Moon has temperatures ranging from -153C to -233C.  It would be more difficult to control the loss of heat to keep systems from suffering extreme temperature changes.
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Offline vorticon

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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2004, 05:27:08 PM »
Going to space via moon is like going from New York to Boston via China.

yes going further than mars using the moon is like that...but getting to mars will be much easier from the moon...once we get to mars and set up shop there then we can look at your asteroid thing...

colonizing the belt before the moon is like using oil from the alberta tar sands before oil from the middle east...while the tar sands have a much longer carrying capacity (2.5 trillion barrels) the cost of extraction and processing makes its cost much higher than middle east oil but by using the middle east oil first we allow the scientific know how needed to actually use the tar sands...

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2004, 05:50:15 PM »
Skuzzy: You use a closed loop system, you can dissipate the heat on the dark side of the Moon, quite rapidly. Water was a suggestion. We have other inert cooling liquids available today that would be more efficient.

 Water is fine. Any liquid would have to be manufactured there of brought from Earth anyway.

 How would you build the pipeline from the one side of the moon to the other - around the moon (3300 miles pipeline) or through the center (2100 miles tunnel)? Multiply by two for the two-way trip. That's a major undertaking. Where would you get energy for it? You would need to manufacture all the pipes and pumps, dig and lift all that rock.

 Oh, yeat - even if built somehow, that scheme of yours would not work anyway! Do you have an idea how much energy it takes to pump water/steam either 2100 or 3300 miles and back? I bet it would be much more than the energy you would need to dissipate in the first place.

As a matter of fact, placing the structures on the periphery of the dark side would help mediate the temperatures.

 The dark side is not really dark it is lighted half the time. There is no permanent "periphery".

 I guess you could build the solar collectors at the poles where the sun is always on the horison, but that would mean they have to be vertical. They will be much heavier than those on the surface. They will also have to rotate to follow the sun around horizon. So it cannot be so big.  You would have multiple rotating collectors interfering with each other. Or you would have to build stationary vertical collectors facing in all directions, each working part of the time.
 We could easily calculate the highest structure we could build on the moon with modern materials (where will we get them?). They would be nowhere close to miles-wide paper-thin collectors you could have lying on the surface around the equator. You would have fraction of power at probably ten thousand times material expenditure.

 Besides that, the poles are the worst places to locate the stations. They lose the equatorial speed addition, so launching from there would be more expensive.
 Any cargo launched from earth will arrive to the moon's equatorial orbit, so it will be a heck of fuel expense to shift to the polar orbit. Any cargo launched from the moon polar area would have to use a lot of extra fuel to adjust to to the proper earth's orbit or Lagrange points (where construction will be taking place).


vorticon: while the tar sands have a much longer carrying capacity (2.5 trillion barrels) the cost of extraction and processing makes its cost much higher than middle east oil but by using the middle east oil first we allow the scientific know how needed to actually use the tar sands...

 I am arguing with Scuzzy how goinmg to the belt will be cheap and using moon not just expensive but impossible. Feel free to start readng our arguments and join discussion any time.

 Anywat, the moon is more like Alberta tar sands and the Belt is like Middle East - a bit further but much easier to exploit.

 miko
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 05:55:03 PM by miko2d »

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2004, 05:56:54 PM »
I thought the moon was simply a satellite and ceased to rotate thousands of years ago?  Therefore the darkside will always remain the darkside and hence when they investigated it they saw how much more cratered it is.
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Offline vorticon

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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2004, 07:10:23 PM »
Quote
Anywat, the moon is more like Alberta tar sands and the Belt is like Middle East - a bit further but much easier to exploit.


its a LOT farther...we cant even get people to mars...

take a look at what we know about mars...its really not much...what we know about the asteroids is half that...with what it will take to get there, find a suitable asteroid, set up production and get back we could easily set up a colony on the moon...


the power issue is simple...use a big mirror in orbit around the moon directly above a solar power array...and put another mirror and  solar power array on the opposite side of the moon...
then just run a power line to wherever the colony is going to be...


gravity is a bit of a pickle but since most of the work can be done by robots you just need to rotate a crew once a month or so...

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2004, 09:28:18 PM »
Replicant, it stopped rotating to us only one side faces us all the time.

A solar eclipse is when the moon passes between the Sun and the Earth. At that point, the "dark side" would in fact be the bright side.
-SW

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2004, 03:41:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Replicant, it stopped rotating to us only one side faces us all the time.

A solar eclipse is when the moon passes between the Sun and the Earth. At that point, the "dark side" would in fact be the bright side.
-SW


Doh, makes sense now!  I got confused by what Miko wrote below about it rotating, I thought he was on about rotating on its axis but he must mean orbiting the Earth and Sun so that the dark side gets light.

Miko2d wrote: Right. The short-term outage on the moon lasts about two weeks, since the moon rotates around its axes once every 28 days or so.
NEXX