Author Topic: Mk108 (Read 378 times)

_Schadenfreude_ · « **on:** March 16, 2004, 02:09:36 AM »

Having played a couple of games that modelled the Mk108 30mm as a scaled down grenade launcher I was more than a little surprised to try it in FB and find that in there it's absolutely amazing.

I was wondering who has it modelled correctly - could anyone comment on the trajectory and bullet drop of the 108 30mm at range under 400ft or 200m? I have had no problem getting 3 round burst kills on fighters or buffs whereas I really struggle in AH.

I don't think FB give anything additional to Axis weapons or a/c that I've noticed, the 108 hits so hard it occurred to me that for playability it may have been changed in other games to make for better gameplay.

Batz · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2004, 02:26:05 AM »

1 ping on a fighter with a 3cm = guarranteed kill in AH.

You must fire mg and cannon together and seeing mg sprites 'cause no way does a fighter survive more then 1 hit of 3cm in AH.

Buffs in ah take 1 to 4 maybe, it depends where you hit them. 1 hit to the wing tip = kill. In FB I bet you fire closer then you do in AH.

d .30 in FB = d 300 in AH. With 3cm best to fire inside 250 yrds in AH.

Unless you play on easy gunnery in FB its been my experience that it requires a well placed hit to get a 1 ping kill in FB. I have np hitting what I shoot at cause I don't fire until I am in close.

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2004, 04:08:06 AM »

I find that realistic gunnery in FB for the 108 is a lot easier than for AH - I was wondering why that is.....

Kweassa · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2004, 08:18:15 AM »

A couple of perceivable reasons Schaden.

The gunnery is more difficult in FB, yes, but on the plus side for the attacker, sharp evasives and keen SA is also more difficult to retain for the defender in FB/AEP.

For one thing, you can't twist your neck 180degrees and get a panoramic 6 view as in AH - for many pilots, there is a delay between evading to one side and then evading to the other, because he has to check both sides of his rear fuselage.

Check one side, see the enemy, maneuver. Then, he has to check the other side and scan if the enemy is at the position he expected him to be. In many cases, the enemy may be not. In whichever case, the absolute "sharpness" of evasives, is hardly as 'clean' and fantastic as in AH.

Thus, strange as it seems, in some situations shooting down an enemy is easier than in AH.

Another reason is the lack of dot dar - bounces are very powerful in FB/AEP. When you get a firing solution in FB/AEP MP rooms, chances are, it's either a long-shot(the enemy knowing you are there and squirming like a worml), or a very easy-shot(totally bounced).

And for the reason previously stated, even if the attacker only surprises his target and fails to bring him down, the difficulty of maneuvering and rear-side scanning makes the defender's immediate evasives a lot less effective than in AH - in short, if you surprise someone, even if you don't kill him in the first pass, it's likely you'll get a lot of good firing chances. Not like in AH where somebody can pull an immediate evasive and turn the tables in a dime - it's possible in FB/AEP, but usually much harder to pull off.

Another reason, is the speeds the planes are flying are a bit lower than AH. Everybody flies on full throttle and WEP in AH. Not so in FB/AEP. While the gunnery itself may be harder than AH, some parts of the overall situation concerning gunnery may be easier than AH.

And, finally, most of the pilots in FB suck. There are some terrific pilots, but the usual multiplayer pilots are either guys who don't have a clue in fighting in a 1vs1 situation, or an all-out alt-monkey who hasn't got a clue how to do what if he ever falls into some real danger. They're easier to bring down than normal AH folk - the really hard part about FB/AEP is managing the stupid net lags and getting used to arcade game rooms.

..

Like Batz said, if an HE mine shell lands it's almost as destructive as in AH - land it on the wingtips or wing middle, and the chances of it snapping off is very high. Wingroots are a bit tougher, but still no match for an MK108 HE shell.

However, FB/AEP models the 'quality' of the hit. Some of the big explosions from HE shells, may not be a really good hit at all. Also, the incendiary rounds are less powerful in doing structural damage, but it kills a lot of internal systems.

If the enemy is lucky, he might survive some 3~5 MK108 shells. But usually, 1~2 well placed rounds kill the enemy.

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2004, 12:22:51 PM »

V.interesting thnks for taking the time to post - only been on FB for a couple of weeks now - so do you think that there's no diff between how the trajectory of the 108 is modelled in the two sims? ie it's other factors that make it seems easier to land hits rather than a flatter trajectory?

Wadke · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2004, 02:10:54 PM »

Took 3 30mm pings in a Hellcat 1 time hehehe (and lived)

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2004, 02:22:24 PM »

Btw I've found that the Virtual1 room and Greater green to be pretty good, high latency gets kicked and I've seen no lag, also everything is on except friendly icons and flight info strip - it's easy to get lost....

Kweassa · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2004, 02:34:25 PM »

I really can't say Schaden.. my impression is that there is not much difference between the trajectories. The only real difference I see is how close I approach my target before open firing.

Even with the MK108, I rarely can get inside 200yards in AH. People simply fly too fast, and squirm around a lot more wildly than FB/AEP. Compared to that, I open up 20mms from 180~200meters, and start using MK108 from 150meters max in FB/AEP.

My opinion is the different feeling may be due to the different situations.

...

I'm not sure if it's correct, but I recall the MK108 trajectory being the same as the WGr21 trajectory. Maybe one can check it that way in FB/AEP .. *shrug*

BenDover · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2004, 03:42:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
d .30 in FB = d 300 in AH. With 3cm best to fire inside 250 yrds in AH.

FYI: 300 yards = 274.32m
And 250 yards = 228.6m

The google calculator is your friend

Urchin · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2004, 08:14:30 PM »

Yea, you tend to get a lot closer to the other plane in IL-2 when you are fighting.

I've only been playing that game for about a week, and I've already had several close rolling scissor fights where me and the other guy never got more than about 75 yards away from eachother. In AH that doesn't happen, it is usually 2-3 hundred yards minimum until someone is saddled up.

IL-2 has to have something modelled drastically different than AH as far as the gunnery/damage model goes. Planes seem to take a LOT more punishment in that game than in AH. That is a good thing though, in my opinion.

It also seems like the planes are modelled somewhat differently.. the 190A5 seems very manueverable (even in a "turn-fight" I could almost keep up with a P-38, and I had very little trouble out-doing him in a slow rolling scissors), but the 109F4 seems very touchy and it stalls easy.

I do like the game though, once you get used to the crappy view system it can be pretty fun. I fly around in external mode till I get in a fight though... it'd be pretty boring to fly around staring at the cockpit, especially since I've yet to find a server that has "radar" to help you find a fight.

Kweassa · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2004, 02:10:25 PM »

Quote

IL-2 has to have something modelled drastically different than AH as far as the gunnery/damage model goes. Planes seem to take a LOT more punishment in that game than in AH. That is a good thing though, in my opinion.

As a matter of fact, they do have drastically different models.

Well, the main mechanism of "hit surface - deal damage" might be pretty much the same, but the way the damage is done is reall different.

The DM in FB/AEP is consisted of internal parts and exterior parts - and the "quality" of a round hit differs according to its type, situation, and penetration.

One example - it's a rare case, but in one case, I've hit a La-7 from almost 90d deflection to the wing. I've roped it vertical and came down on it's top with speed. The MK108 shell I fired penetrated the upper surface of the La-7's wing, rammed through the wing, and actually penetrated the underside of the wing. And then, it detonated as it left the underside of the wing!!

The plane received a puncture, but most of the destructive force from detonation was dissipated, and the La-7 had its wings intact. Now, that's some impressive DM when it comes to "variance according to situation"!

.....

Personally, I was really skeptical about the DM until finally in FB/AEP the 'variance' factor seems to have stabilized and a certain tendency now shows. The chances of structural failures are really low in FB/AEP compared to AH.

In AH, the result of good gunnery immediately piles up as kills achieved. You hit something, and it immediately snaps off. It's because of that people are able to land something like 7~10 kills per sortie - clearly, that's very unlikely in FB/AEP.

In FB/AEP, structural failures are more rare, but the destruction of internal systems depriving the pilot's ability to fly, is more probable. Some damages are progressional, others are immediate. Whatever the case, when it comes to the recently released Aces Expansion Pack, now my opinion is the gunnery/DM portrayed there is the most believable ever portrayed in the history of air combat sim games.

..

What makes it even more fun, is other small "candies".. like how a temporary fire may start when a well landed 20mm blast ignites oil running in the engine. When you cut the engine and enter a dive, the airflow actually temporarily puts out the flames.. And then, as the airspeed slows down, the engine catches fire again. Man, that's impressive.

Also, P-38s catch fire with damage, and then voila, the pilot feathers the damaged engine and engages the fire extinguisher system - the flame stops.. man, that's cool.