Author Topic: Prisoner Abuse (Read 6424 times)

lada · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:15:42 PM »

1 more question into this problem......

How is this possible on sutch level in PROFESIONAL army ?

i rather expect that from non profesional army.

Thrawn · « **Reply #16 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:17:22 PM »

"The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America."

Wow, the American press is covering the actions of Americans more than they were covering the actions of Iraqis. Who would have thunk it?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #17 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:19:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
"The abuse of these iraqi prisoners are getting twice the coverage that prison abuses from saddam had since 1991 Thrawn, at least here in America."

Wow, the American press is covering the actions of Americans more than they were covering the actions of Iraqis. Who would have thunk it?

You're right, the ovens in Germany while cooking Jews didn't get much press either.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:21:03 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Everyone knows Hussein's regime was one of oppression and cruelty. Any story about their atrocities would hardly be "news". The US is not known to be a cruel and oppressive regime, therefore such atrocities committed by (DISCLAIMER: a few) US service men is "news" ... and rather bad news at that.

Good point, its rare indeed that our servicemen act like this, I suppose it will indeed draw alittle more coverage.

airguard · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2004, 02:24:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
I don't think it's a good comparison. Were these things happening in Germany, Italy and Japan one year after occupation began?

I hear people saying ww2 is not a good comparition for this one ok maybe right.

But history dont diffrences wars actually they pretty much the same only the weapons is diffrent.
reasons always the same, Kinda criminal, somebody wants what others owns , and ofcourse the owners want it back. and there we go.

Gixer · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2004, 05:27:37 PM »

I've been reading each of the replies and am quite frankly stunned at some of the short sightedness in the responses.

Attempting to play down/defend the incident due to past wars or to Sadam himself are so incredibly short sighted one wonders if that opinion is of someone who actually thinks at all of the larger picture. Rather then just defending "the team" on this incident.

The larger picture is one of enormous implications to US relations in the region and around the globe. At a time when US credibility has plummeted to an unprecedented level as a result of the invasion of Iraq and for the middle east region also the US continued support for Israel.

At a time when the US is trying to gain support for the war in Iraq from other countries and involve the UN or Nato. Instances like this have an enourmous impact. Especially for governments that are currently supporting the war like Australia and Britain for instance. Where the majortiy of the population is strongly against the war.

With elections looming a change of government is inevitable as people look to have their countries support cease and for the troops to return, as the war becomes more and more unpopular.

The fact that no WMD's were ever found is bad enough. But along with the continued and ever esculating fighting, increasing casualty rates for the coalition and Iraqi civilians. Breakdown of security and failure to win "the hearts and minds" of the civilian population. Events like this no matter how isolated can easily be the diplomatic nail in the coffin. Not only for the war in Iraq but also for the war on terror.

~~...-Gixer~~

lada · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2004, 05:43:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by airguard

But history dont diffrences wars actually they pretty much the same only the weapons is diffrent.
reasons always the same, Kinda criminal, somebody wants what others owns , and ofcourse the owners want it back. and there we go.

Yes you are correct and i will give you classic example

before 1938
On czech lands close to german boarder lived many german people and most spread language there were german.
Then German, UK agree that Hitler can take it, coz a lot of German live there.
So in 1939 we lost about 40 km from our boarder, because some other states with out us did some agreement

in 1945 germany were defeated.
Czech took lands back, moved all germans to the Germany and confiscated their holds.(include people whitch lived here before) And everybody who were cooperating with Germans during WW2 lost all holds as well.

AND HERE WE GO
90`s .. German wanna back lands , whitch has been confiscated after WW2, back.
2000 German say to block our Entrance to EU ( or something like that) if we will not give those lands back to owners(mostly german)

so we gave them nothing and we will never give them anything.

tell me where is justice.

Those people(formet owners) didnt mind when germans came.
Those people were not pro nazi before nazi cames.
They has been moved out from czech with 100kg/per person after war.

We kept their holds as war compensation from germany.

Now look at Palestine and 60 years back

Is it that much diferent ?

After BS happen its pointless to seek something like "justice"

some agreement would be much more real and usefull

VOR · « **Reply #22 on:** May 05, 2004, 06:29:54 PM »

I think the only realistic difference between this occupation and those of the past is mass media. There are people out there up to no good as we speak right now..but are they getting caught?

capt. apathy · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2004, 06:42:46 PM »

from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter).

obviously I'm no better informed than your average guy here on the subject (it's not like I'm 'in the loop' info wise) but from what I've seen, I seen nothing to give the impression that the bush administration or the command structure advocated or even gave any indication that they would tolerate such behavior.

it seems like some soldiers acted in a very unprofessional manner (even sub-human), but it seems to be individual instances, and I've heard no reports that there was ever any attempts to cover it up or allow these things to happen. as long as the administration continues to take appropriate action (and from what I've seen so far that appearers to be exactly what they have been doing so far), there isn't a whole lot to discuss.

the reason I feel you haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on such a big subject is that there is really nothing to discuss.

pretty much everyone agrees that the behavior of these soldiers was flat out wrong. most could agree that the response from the administration has been appropriate. AFAIK we haven't heard what the final punishment will be for all of those involved so we can't argue about that. so whats to talk about?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:41:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter).

obviously I'm no better informed than your average guy here on the subject (it's not like I'm 'in the loop' info wise) but from what I've seen, I seen nothing to give the impression that the bush administration or the command structure advocated or even gave any indication that they would tolerate such behavior.

it seems like some soldiers acted in a very unprofessional manner (even sub-human), but it seems to be individual instances, and I've heard no reports that there was ever any attempts to cover it up or allow these things to happen. as long as the administration continues to take appropriate action (and from what I've seen so far that appearers to be exactly what they have been doing so far), there isn't a whole lot to discuss.

the reason I feel you haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on such a big subject is that there is really nothing to discuss.

pretty much everyone agrees that the behavior of these soldiers was flat out wrong. most could agree that the response from the administration has been appropriate. AFAIK we haven't heard what the final punishment will be for all of those involved so we can't argue about that. so whats to talk about?

Best post in this thread..

-MZ- · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:44:32 PM »

If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2004, 07:49:47 PM »

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Originally posted by -MZ-
If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.

Actually, it was argued (within the military) whether or not to release this to the public immediately...it was chosen not to, bad choice though, the info would have eventually gotten out. Either way, the results from this incident would have been the same.

Gixer · « **Reply #27 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:14:43 PM »

"from what I've read/seen-on-tv, this is one situation that can't been blamed on the bush administration (or the armed forces for that matter). "

True but it seems in the eyes of middle east nations that Bush's televised speech regarding the incident was totally unconvincing and ineffective. .

Again one needs to look at the wider picture and implications at a time when US credibility in the region and globaly is already at a new low.

~~...-Gixer~~

Drunky · « **Reply #28 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:17:35 PM »

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Originally posted by lada
1 more question into this problem......

How is this possible on sutch level in PROFESIONAL army ?

i rather expect that from non profesional army.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here...I do not condone what they have done.

Imagine that you are fighting in the war, you've just liberated a people from a horrific tyrant. Yet, it would seem that everytime you turn around you have the people that you have liberated throwing grenades, shooting, mortars, and car bombs killing the your friends and fellow service men. I imagine that this would get frustrating and upsetting eventually.

Again, I'm not condoning any abuse. Just presenting another view point.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #29 on:** May 05, 2004, 08:40:11 PM »

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True but it seems in the eyes of middle east nations that Bush's televised speech regarding the incident was totally unconvincing and ineffective. .

Again one needs to look at the wider picture and implications at a time when US credibility in the region and globaly is already at a new low.

while I'll agree that we may look bad after this, and there will be some sort of diplomatic implications, speaking just for myself I don't really give a damn about how we appear.

I don't care if we give the impression of handling it, I don't care if other country's think we are a-holes.

as an American I want this handled, I want the guilty parties punished appropriately (read severely), and want whatever steps are possible to make sure it never happens again taken.

and I want these things done, not because of how others will think of us, but because it's the right thing to do, and under no circumstances do I ever want this sort of behavior considered except able in my country or by my countrymen.

to sum it up. I'd like the right thing to be done here and I'd like the focus to be more on doing the right thing than on the appearance of the right thing. and from what I can see thats what is happening.

Quote

If you think that this made it out into public because of the goodness of the Bush administration and the Army, you're living in fantasy land.

who said anything about the 'goodness of anybodies heart'. I said it doesn't appear to be a cover-up. maybe they didn't immediately go public with the reports but that is not a cover-up. cover-ups involve hiding or destroying evidence, and taking active steps to hide the truth. this is a completely different thing than deciding not to hold a press release immediately.