another whine

[TT]

 The speed of the P51 is so out of preportion to the rest of the planes, that it just ruins this game. Ive long since lost count of the sorti,s that have been ruined for me, by a p51 that I never even exchanged shots with. Just haveing the damn thing lurking around keeps you from engageing a con that you would jump right in with otherwise. I see more and more gangs of them flying togather all the time.

 The only thing you can do is fly one yourself. Can you say one plane sim.

[This message has been edited by TT (edited 01-12-2000).]

[juzz]

The Spitfire and Bf109 are pretty quick too, I think it's more the way people fly the Runstang, than the fact that it's so much faster than the other planes.

[Minotaur]

TT;

I have a hard time realizing where you are coming from, on this issue.  Any plane type lurking is a pain.  

The lurkers tactic, at least when I do it, is to keep them bunched up and keep them turning.  Hopefully you survive until re-enforcemets arrive, or nail a loner.  It is a tactic as viable as any other.  EX: Roping a Dope Tactic

Personally, "My Biggest Pain Plane"   is the c.205.  IMO that A/C is the best slasher in the game right now.  If the 190 is a "Battle Axe" and the 51 is a "Long Sword", then the c.205 is a "Sabre".

BTW anyone else but me getting the "News, Announcements, & Information" bug?   B-26 new plane...  So happy...  C'mon C'mon!  

In any happening, Good Luck!

Mino

[Yeager]

FWIW,

I fly the 51 as my default ride.  The reasons are many and complex.  Its fair to say that I fly the N1k, LA5 and Spitfire about half the rest of the time equally divided.

Now, I have been shot down on numerous occasions flying the P51 by other planes and they are usually Spitfires, N1Ks or B-17Gs.

The dedicated 109 and 190 drivers are starting to get seriously sped up and are becoming a quantifiable pain in the bellybutton as well.

So, while I sympathize with TT, I am also compelled to extend my perspective in order to provide balance to this discussion.

Yeager

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 01-12-2000).]

[Fishu]

I keep 109/190s just as tasty target, easy to shoot down because Bf109 doesnt climb as supposed to, and Fw190 is slow and flies like rock, when compares to another planes (same goes with Bf109)

I have noticed that every allie plane can do negative-G pushes far more better than ANY axis plane. (wonder whats the trick?)

If I want to do some hard neg-G push in 205, 109, 190 or niki, i need to trim down, still I am far behind that what P-51 or Spitfire can do *without* play with trims.

Bf109 needs heavily trimming..
C.205 needs even more trimming than Bf109 (once ack shot both wingtips, i couldnt keep it steady even with 10 MAN throttle, like i can do with all others)
C.205 has some big torque

I hope v.46 will do allie/axis planes more closer to be in the same game.
Though, C.205 and N1K2 are best ones you can have, but LW planes far from that.

P-51s flies like UFOs often.. doing loops at the deck over and over and some negative-G hartmann maneuvers... (that bf109 never will do)
Oh.. and most of all, P-51 does verticals like nothing compared to 109.. eh eh... (who did leave stall speed high on the 109?)

Ps. did someone tweak .50 calibers? they seem more powerful

*end of whine*

[Hristo]

OK, I am ready to whine again !!  

The P 51 is the master of 109 tricks. Period.

Whatever was 109 trick in WB, P 51 does it better than 109 in AH. Immelmann at lower speeds. Hammerheads and wingovers. Rudder reversals. Using rudder to slice in turns.

Yea, I know, it is beta, it is beta.

[Hangtime]

LOL.. What's all the whining about?? I find the AH P51-D to be seroiusly treatened by anything higher than it.. La5's and Macchis are a particular bane of the P51. Goes without saying the Niki and Spit can kill it with ease too if the stang gets slow and turning. Certinaly the well flown LW Iorn is capable of ruining one's day with one little sqirt from those awsome kannonen.

Sure the Mustang is fast.. it's supposed ta be. Sure the Mustang is a superb E fighter; better than the FW or the 109 at E tactics when flown well.. it's supposed ta be. Thats the way it was.. and the way it is.

Cheer up.. it's only got 6 undermodeled .50's, and makes a wonderful target with that nice shiny aluminum skin.   Just soot one in the bellybutton for a few seconds and the tail falls off. Poke a hole in the radiator and the pilot has a real dilemma. Pull over the top of one with any of the T&B planes and get him into verticals and he's quickly done as toast. Oh.. and have I mentioned the wings tend to fall off at the worst moments?

The Mustang has plenty of achilles heels.. and Achilles himself only had one.  

Hang (who's bellybutton got pounded sore last night)

 

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[bashwolf]

I been flying the 109 regularly lately.  It rocks but p51 does it better    .  I fought p51 tonite that was higher than me by 5k n i was in 109.  He bnz me like 4 times.  Finaly we were coalt and merge the 5th time.  Boy can that p51 can climb compare to 109 i was just shock how but how.  Anyhow this message is to help fix certain bugs in some of the planes.  I still fly 109s n still fight p51s.  Just wish they stick around n meet my 30mms    See you all in the unfriendly skies

Bash

wait maybe i should fly p51 too  
 www.fly.to/airwolves

[Minotaur]

Fishu;

   

*end of whine*

LOL <Salute>   I know your postings well, I will believe it when I see it.    

Hristo;
 
   

The P 51 is the master of 109 tricks. Period.

I am very close here to calling a 109 Whine Alert!.  Go easy now, OK.    

All;

If HTC just happens to remove the P-51 from the game, what would happen?

1) Not as much to whine about, for a little while.

2) The "Next Best Plane" at doing what the P-51 does now, would simply takes its place and a whine would start anew.  

3) HTC possibly loses alot of future potential customers, in essence, players that we all game against.

What would happen if HTC just happens to "De-Model" the P-51 to fit one "Special Interest Groups" mold of what the plane should be?

1) HTC creditability for every other plane in the set goes "KaPut".

2) HTC possibly loses alot of future potential customers, in essence, players that we all game against.

Don't make me pull my BIG stirring stick!    

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-13-2000).]

[Hristo]

   

I am very close here to calling a 109 Whine Alert!. Go easy now, OK

Just what should that mean ?!
I can't complain about your P51 ? I post an argumented statement and you answer me with a phrase ? Reread again...

Did you actually try those moves and then posted the reply, instead taking my words out of context ?! Or was it a reflex reaction ?

Go do a simple test. Take 109 and P 51 offline and record a minimum speed at which you can do clean Immelmann at given altitude. Proceed with hammerheads, wingovers and other reversals. Then come back and answer.

Slow speed reversals, rudder moves, which used to be 109 tricks (great power loading, excellent slow speed handling, superior rudder authority) are now in favor of the plane with inferior power loading, poor low speed handling, moderate rudder authority.




[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-13-2000).]

[Minotaur]

Hristo

Wow! Fast response!

Let me first say, that if you have taken offense?  Please accept my apology.  I meant nothing other than some playful ribbing.  I will "Eat Crow" here and now.

The "109 Whine Alert!" is nothing other than comments that come from my own thoughts, it is nothing sponsured by HTC nor by any other individual.  It has nothing to do with the 109 as it is currently modeled in AH, nor planes that have existed in the real world.

However, I do enjoy reading the various messages posted here and read about every single one.  Simply put, I grow tired of constant whining about A/C FM.  The 109 is a hot one.  The word whine rhymes with 9 so I think it is fine, and I go with it. (Whine Rhyme 9 Fine - I could be on to somthing here   )

As to flying the 109.  I have tried to like it.  I fly it 3 or 4 times every version, hoping that I will find something that I like about it.  The 109 seems to be a plane that does not fit me, and there are other planes that I enjoy, so it is no big deal for me.  

I can see where it might be a big deal for you and I encourage patience.  There are 2 new versions of the 109 coming out soon.  That has to be exciting.  I have often considered that there might be the possibility of some behind the scenes 109  testing, in the arena envoirment, going on.  AH is still Beta.

Even if AH were not in Beta, I can say that I consider HTC ideas about FM to be much better than mine, and I just don't worry about it.  I would whine little about any planes FM anyway, because I have never actually flown any real plane modeled in AH.  So, how the hell could I know how they might compare, or what the characteristics of each plane should be.  How can I give you a validating answer?

This is another whine thread right?  Cheer up!  

Mino

[Hristo]

Point taken, Minotaur. No need to apologize, it was me who jumped first.

However, only reason I post these things are hope for HTC crew to read feedback of someone who puts considerable time in flying the 109.

The comparison with P 51 should be very obvious, and the things I pointed are easily comparable. I understand it is beta, but we have to leave the beat at some point.

P 51D can (or 109 can't) do a clean Immelann at 200 IAS at 15kft. The torque of 109 is no help either, but still. Negative elevator input is not up to the reputation of 109. Rudder authority needs some work too.

As, for other 109 versions, I don't know, it all depends on modeling. If you model G-6 with MW 50, it might be pretty competitive. If you put Umrust Motor in it, the same DB 605D as in our G-10, it will kick a@#.

Similar thing with our 109G-10. The DB 605D engine is not the most powerful the G-10 used to have. It cannot put 2000 hp, but only 1850 hp max, AFAIK.

Now, with 109 variants, why not the 109K-4 ? With DB 605ASCM engine ? Somewhere I read 452 mph at alt.

[Hristo]

One more questions for experts, please.

I remember reading in Green's "Warplanes of The Third Reich" that some 109G versions got devices that reduced <drum roll> ).....stick forces.

Now, please let me finish before you start laughing.

Apparently, these devices were ment to work with aileron and elevator input. However, only aileron devices were available, and only they were built in.

The result was that the aileron lightness was so unbalanced comparing to elevator input, that these units have been pulled out.

Now, my question is: Did later 109 variants used these devices in combination for ailerons and elevator ? What do you know of these devices ?

Right now I am at work, but will try to read Green again when I get home.

[TT]

 I disagree about the next uber plane if the UFO-D is dropped. The rest are pretty even. The spits HO ability is out of perportion to what it is armed with. But other than that, im willing to fly any plane against any other plane without complaint.

 I wont argue FM,s. I dont know enough about it. I will argue game balance however. This thing is like a 262 without the cannon. They should have a p51 night. Like the 262 night they have in WB.

[Swager]

Last nite was the first time I was involved in a prolonged turn with flying a Spit against a Me109.  The 109 got a few ping initially but the turning of the Spit after about three turns the 109 was in view. The pilot seen the trouble and disengaged by climbing, which left me wishing!

The way it should be. Yes?

I hate the C205!!  Finally shot down another one last night but DAMN, it took awhile!  

A fast P51 gets in and gets out so damn fast most of my gunnery on one is just a fleeting shot!

Both the P51 and F4U: Get in and get out!!

I seen an attack by a F4U a few night ago at F16 that was beautiful! The pilot came in at about 350 flew right over top of me an attacked a fellow Knight and blew him up with one quick high speed pass.  I forgot the pilots name, but it was some flying!!  I quickly turned around in an attempt to find friendier skies.  hehe!  

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Damn Ghostrider!  This bogey is all over me!!