Author Topic: View from cockpit (Read 2211 times)

Pyro · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2004, 09:09:59 AM »

While staying seated and facing forward, you can't turn your head and see directly behind you? You should talk to your doctor about that if you can't.

TimRas · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2004, 09:38:44 AM »

many planes had these mirrors also...

bozon · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2004, 10:40:16 AM »

the mirrors are for parking in reverse or correcting the lipstick.

Bozon

SKurj · « **Reply #18 on:** June 29, 2004, 12:12:12 PM »

Oleg likely will implement something closer to AH views in the near future... mebbe no dead 6 view, I really dunno, but they have stated they are looking at the view system for one of the upcoming projects. Not sure if that means Pac or BoB or some other sim in the future.

I hate the view system in the IL2 series, TIR improves things but its an expensive advantage...

About this pan issue... this another thing I objected to with the original IL2. Your brain filters out the stuff you might be seeing as your head turns, so in effect you DON'T see anything in the transition. Pan views do not replicate this very well, and often lead to motion sickness, nausea etc.

Thankfully at least FB and AEP let you control the pan speed, my settings are basically instant views.

Oleg is getting close...

SKurj

SKurj

Edbert · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2004, 12:47:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SKurj
Oleg is getting close...

Agreed 100%. That game is absolutely the most wonderful flight sim ever to come in a box. AEP just made it even more so. All he needs to do now is to work the gunnery a bit and set up a server that will support 500+ concurrent players and he wont be "close" anymore

Seeker · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2004, 03:29:49 PM »

I don't agree that you can't see much when turning your head fast. I never had any trouble seeing trackside markers nor positioning other bikes on the track with a quick glance over the shoulder.

You may not see detail; but you certainly see movement and form.

It's a fact that peripheral vision is governed by rods in the eye sensitive to movement and outline); while focused vision is governed by cones ( sensitive to colour and detail); and every report I've read about action; in the cockpit or on the ground generaly starts with " I saw something out of the corner of my eye"....

Quite the reverse when you're trying to simulate peripheral vision and your customers are sat 18 " away staring at centre screen (which ever way their virtual heads should be facing).

(though you could make an argument that 180 degrees should be a "stop"; and a 270 degree rotation disallowed)

I think that the rear/up view is probably a bit unrealistic; not the rear view it's self.

SKurj · « **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2004, 04:07:53 PM »

Not sure if that is aimed at my comments Seeker, but if they are...

We are talking about two different things...

If I decide I want to look behind me then I will turn my head to look behind me and not register anything inbetween, if I am planning on making that transition fast. And no matter how fast or slow the glance, I will see whats behind me.

This isn't about peripheral vision I thought... thought it was about panning...

The only times I believe you would see things while turning is if:
A) you are consciously looking and therefore not panning all that fast
B) something big just became very visible

An aircraft at 5-6k coalt... be pretty hard to notice while scrambling to look over your 6 for a con..

SKurj

Mugzeee · « **Reply #22 on:** June 30, 2004, 07:48:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing snap views disabled and then changing the view system so that if you are looking over the right wing, then look back and then want to look to the left rear it rotates through the forward view to get there.

Snap view doesn’t do this? While it may seem a faster transition than humanly possible... I don’t take as long in real life to turn you head as it does in IL2 or WB. Sit in your chair (virtual cockpit)...make like you got your stick in your hand (No not that one…the one that controls you Ailerons and elevator) and with you feet on the rudder peddles. Look back, right, and down. Now make like you are in a real life fight...and imagine that a bandit just transitioned from your low 4 to 5 then to 6...outa sight. Your instinct tells you he’s prolly going to appear on your Low 7 to 8 knowing this and keeping in mind that you are about to be literally killed.... FEAR!!! You are going to turn you pretty little head as fast as you can to find that Sum-B for to the point that you might even strain you neck doing so...Now with this in mind... Turn you head from looking Back, Right and Down...to looking Back Left and Down. Do this as quickly as the outlined scenario dictates… would. YOU CAN MOVE THAT HEAD PRETTY FRICKIN FAST eh? To even be more realistic most are going to roll right to keep vis longer on the approaching bandit...then quickly roll left to pick him up again on the left back view. Nahhh... I say leave the snap view as is.

Quote

Originally posted by moot
but what about the effects of G load?

A more sensable observation. But that is a variable that would be ever changing...Suppose it could be modeled in some how? I mean G effects are already modeled in, Buffeting, compression, and higher G-Load causes more severe and longer blackouts. Sounds like a tricky code issue. Not that i would actually know...just seems that it would be. Pyro...Would it? Kinda like the sound of the idea anyway.

Halo · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2004, 07:08:27 PM »

Dear Doctor,

Pyro says I should be able to turn my head and see directly behind me.

I cannot do that, so Pyro says I should see you.

What are you doing? No ... wait ... YOWWWWCCHH!

Now I can see only directly behind me and nowhere else.

Thanks a lot, Pyro.

Kweassa · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2004, 09:03:15 PM »

Apparently, the "angle" we can twist our heads, is more realistic in Aces High than Forgotten Battles.

However, the circumstances are not - the way how we can view our 6 in a panoramic wide-view in a single flick, how we can move our head position back to bring out that wide-view, and how we can cross from looking over left shoulder to right shoulder directly.

The limited view angles in FB is terrible, but once you get used to it, it is very exciting and heart pounding, to have to check left shoulder and then right shoulder and vice versa again and again to check enemy position.

....

In a previous incarnation of this dicussion, these were my suggestions:

AH2 as of now

IL-2/FB: Severe limitation in angles

Suggested: Looking over each shoulders

"Look Over Left Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

"Look Over Right Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

In essence, we will have two 6 views we can map separately, in order to check both sides of fuselage in turns, not at a glance. Thus, we will be limited in head positions, but not angles.

wrag · « **Reply #25 on:** July 02, 2004, 09:05:23 AM »

Hmmm the last views are pretty much what I have in my views?

Guess I didn't push the view to the extremes?

Seeker · « **Reply #26 on:** July 02, 2004, 12:19:05 PM »

Kawaessa's example is more an illustration of AH's head positioning than it is of it's views; as such.

The view obstructions in IL-2 and AH are about the same when using mouse view in AH.

That's not too bad in mouse view; but the draw back of displaying all views from a single point of origin really shows in snapviews; because in IL-2; if you're trying to form on a wingman who's occluded by in top right canopy rail in forward view; he's still occluded by the same rail in the same place in the forward/up/right view.

In AH; when you move your head from side to side; it really moves; and your perspective changes; revealing the wingman again.

Every thing can be improved; but I definately prefer AH's views.

Kweassa · « **Reply #27 on:** July 02, 2004, 05:04:19 PM »

More detailed pics according to the situation.

AH2 as of now

IL-2/FB: Severe limitation in angles

Suggested: Real life situation

"Look Over Left Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

"Look Over Right Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

There are anecdotes of how P-51 pilots were able to see their vertical stabs while looking back - but that doesn't mean they get the whole picture of your 6O'c at a single view point.

If the 'whole picture' is set on a scale of 100%, looking over each shoulders would provide roughly about 55% of the pic, with the rest 45% still obscured due to obvious, anatomical and physical reasons.

IL-2 takes the approach of getting rid of the 6 view totally, allowing 0%.

AH reveals about 80% at a single glance, with about 20% obscured due to the headrest - because we can get a panoramic view by moving our head to much too lenient positions as seen in the pic(to put one's head there, the pilot would have to either let go of the stick and unstrap all belts, or he'd have to sit backwards on the seat).

The 3rd set of pics is what I think is most represantative of real life - shoulder straps off or loosened, pilot holding on to the stick, having to check both sides of the fuselage in turn to get 100%. The pilot can see the vertical stabs, but not the whole picture.

DipStick · « **Reply #28 on:** July 03, 2004, 06:21:20 AM »

How would everyone feel about having the 180 degree rear view removed and instead you have say a 176 degree and 184 degree rear view - ie you have a blind spot directly on your six?

NO!

Creamo · « **Reply #29 on:** July 03, 2004, 09:11:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
More detailed pics according to the situation.

AH2 as of now

IL-2/FB: Severe limitation in angles

Suggested: Real life situation

"Look Over Left Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

"Look Over Right Shoulder" view, will be engaged when the hat key moves from to position.

There are anecdotes of how P-51 pilots were able to see their vertical stabs while looking back - but that doesn't mean they get the whole picture of your 6O'c at a single view point.

If the 'whole picture' is set on a scale of 100%, looking over each shoulders would provide roughly about 55% of the pic, with the rest 45% still obscured due to obvious, anatomical and physical reasons.

IL-2 takes the approach of getting rid of the 6 view totally, allowing 0%.

AH reveals about 80% at a single glance, with about 20% obscured due to the headrest - because we can get a panoramic view by moving our head to much too lenient positions as seen in the pic(to put one's head there, the pilot would have to either let go of the stick and unstrap all belts, or he'd have to sit backwards on the seat).

The 3rd set of pics is what I think is most represantative of real life - shoulder straps off or loosened, pilot holding on to the stick, having to check both sides of the fuselage in turn to get 100%. The pilot can see the vertical stabs, but not the whole picture.

Damn near perfect. WTG for taking the time. Like to see the same thing for a cramped lacking 6 view like the 109. Please.

Il-2 fails because it doesn't take in account any "lean" my the pilot torso. AH fails cuz it takes it into account and doesn't model glass or cockpit struts stopping the helmet.

I feel both teams could read Kweassa's post and make 6 views almost dead on. Will they?

Naw. Lotsa gameplay issues and stubborness may make that easy change impossible.