Author Topic: 109 Flight model.... aaaaarrrrgggghhhh (Read 686 times)

RELIC · « **on:** July 13, 2004, 08:35:22 PM »

I'm having an extremely difficult time flying the 109 G10 & G6 in low speed turnfights. The tendency to drop either wing into a nasty stall is almost uncontrollable. Since this is considerably different than it was in AH1, I am wondering if its me, a bug in the flight model, or is this the new flight model HT is happy with? I noticed one of the earlier patches addressed an issue with "slats" on the 109 but it seems like this is still an issue - at least for me.
Anyone else having any problems? I tried several different fuel and weapon loads, calibrating the stick, and flying with combat trim on and off and had no luck at all. Since the G10 was one of my favorite rides, I am hoping something is wrong with the flight model; or its me and someone can give me some tips!

RELIC

Dogsta04 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2004, 08:52:15 PM »

This Thread in CT

I have noticed these problems as well.
the G-10 is also seeming to be lacking in the Accel and Speed dept. absolutly every thing can catch it, including HurrIIc's
just got caught in the CT in a G10 by a Hurri IIc after a 20k dive, I was doing well over 450 ias and i looked back and there was the hurri closing 5.5 back. I realize he was diving, but!!!I had that G 10 compressed whole way down, I should have left them way way back.
the G 10 will no long Spiral Climb either, it stalls out and then you are stuck in a flat turn at 100 - 120 ias waiting to die.

Widewing · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2004, 11:27:48 PM »

Okay guys, I fly the 109s a lot. I find the new flight model better than that in AH1.

First, the 109G-10 is not a good platform for stall fighting. Too much torque. On the other hand, the 109F-4 or G-2 are very capable at turn fighting, even with gondolas.

I have spiral climbed away from a pair of pursuing Mustangs with ease in a 109G-6. Just remember not to spiral climb into torque, your spiral should be to the left. Also, the 109 has a strong rudder. Use it to prevent the inside wing from dropping.

My suggestion is to familiarize yourselves with the new flight model and use the 109 where is works best, fighting in the vertical plane.

My regards,

Widewing

RELIC · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2004, 12:31:15 AM »

I don't think this is a torque issue since this stall breaks fast and hard on both sides, and is happening at all throttle settings. The best description I read was in the earlier thread about the bug on the 109 slats.
I have not noticed a marked difference in the spiral climb abilities. You do have to be more aware of the ene planes energy level. I have noticed all the fighters I have flown in AH2 don't accelerate out like they used too - not that big of an issue since it affected all of them.
I sure hope this isn't the "approved" flight model for the G10. I fully realize AH2 is a different game with diff flight models but frankly I don't care much for the change to this particular fighter. After reading the thread in the CT board I see that I'm not alone in my concerns (thanks for posting Dogsta). I'm sure there could be hours of time spent digging out ancient performance reports to justify/debunk the new 109 flight model but frankly all I want to know... is this a bug or not, or simply something I have setup wrong? If it is a bug then no prob, I will wait until it gets fixed. If its me then can someone please help this poor soul. If it isn't either, then I will fly something else. I always was partial to the 38, 51, Chog, Tiffie, F6F, etc etc etc

Drano · « **Reply #4 on:** July 14, 2004, 11:31:14 AM »

Can't speak to the G-10's handling but I can say I had a hop in an F-4 last week in the CT. I used Energy and spiral tactics against Spits and found handling much more stable than in AH1, IMO.

I never found the 109's to be more than average turners.

Drano

wrag · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2004, 04:09:07 PM »

Hmmm....

I have to say I agree with Widewing here.

109 will turn extremely well under certain conditions. Can almost reverse direction in the length of the plane. Err ahh maybe it doesn't actually turn LOL

1 when the slat pops it's usually the high wing (sometimes going in this direction with your manuver really throws off the nme)

2 cut a little, or allot of throttle, pull the stick back, and add full rudder (you figure out the order cause I can't tell you cause I do it by combination of speed, angle, and where I wanna go etc.) (and sometimes I blow this manuver BADLY and die)

3 apply full throttle (maybe even kick in wep) as you release flight controls

4 this can be done at most speeds below 300 mph HOWEVER the speed. angle of attack, and throttle, at entering this manuver makes a big difference on how it turns out at exit.

newer flight model seems abit different and pony's (actually almost everthing) seem harder to catch ???

Answer for me is stay fast, keep alt, and go vertical.

109f4 and g2 are a dream for turn fights

but seem a little slower now

Question!!!!!!!

Has anyone managed to do the Hartman manuver in any 109?????

I have not

But perhaps I have an incorrect understanding of this manuver????

It was reported to me as cut throttle, full forward left stick, as you applied full left rudder??????????

Hmm maybe it was full right rudder LOL

Is was supposed to bring you out of a reversel type manuver with almost all your E retained.

RELIC · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2004, 06:01:11 PM »

Its at really low speeds where the problem occurs but I'm starting to think there is something wrong on my end. I asked a squadmate to test the G10 in the TA at very low speeds in vertical and horizontal turns and he said it flew nice and stable for him. I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing something that most others are not. I can't even out stall fight a 51 on the deck and that used to be moderately easy to do. Now at low speeds the G10 handles (for me) like a bicycle on a tightrope - dropping off violently to either side.
I have NOT noticed any problems stall fighting in other fighters, just the G10 and G6. I guess I need to grab a F model and see if it does it there too.

RELIC

CurtissP-6EHawk · « **Reply #7 on:** July 15, 2004, 07:10:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dogsta04
This Thread in CT

I have noticed these problems as well.
the G-10 is also seeming to be lacking in the Accel and Speed dept. absolutly every thing can catch it, including HurrIIc's
just got caught in the CT in a G10 by a Hurri IIc after a 20k dive, I was doing well over 450 ias and i looked back and there was the hurri closing 5.5 back. I realize he was diving, but!!!I had that G 10 compressed whole way down, I should have left them way way back.
the G 10 will no long Spiral Climb either, it stalls out and then you are stuck in a flat turn at 100 - 120 ias waiting to die.

Now you see how I feel when I dive away from an A6M5 at 450 mph (in F4U-1D) look back and he stays right there at D.400. Level off on the deck and fly 20 miles before he backs off to 2.5 to 3.0...enough where I can tuck my tail and run in peace

Kweassa · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2004, 07:04:56 PM »

I think it's a relative thing.

The planes that are able to use flaps at combat speeds around 250 or so, is incredibly hard to outmaneuver now.

In AH1 I would feel more or less confident when fighting a P-51D, thinking I have more than 70% chance on nabbing the guy even in the tightest of stall fights.

But come in AH2, and I'm not sure if I'd be able to beat even an average pilot in a P-51D.

The 109 itself hasn't changed much, but the other planes are relatively much more powerful IMO. The stall tendencies do seem a bit more severe than AH1, but it just means much more careful rudder work. Basically whatever I can do in AH1 with 109s, I can it in AH2. Heck, I was even able to keep up with a N1K2 in a rolling scissors in a G-2..

RELIC · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2004, 03:53:12 AM »

Whatever was done in patch 6 has solved my problem with the G10. Not sure how or why but I'm damn glad it did!! Its much more controllable now at low speeds. AND my framerates went up and stutters disappeared. Couldn't be happier.

RELIC

Hajo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2004, 09:53:20 AM »

G10 least maneuverable of the 109 series. Fly it 90% of the time now.

No problems here with it. Not a good low speed fighter, but does turn well in the 300mph range.....and still climbs very well. Key imho of using the 109G10 is using the throttle much more in turns.