Author Topic: 3 hostage takers captured alive  (Read 4122 times)

Offline Bodhi

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3 hostage takers captured alive
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2004, 06:39:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Eventually...


Grun, if you seem to be that hard up to see them tortured, tell ya what, I'll spring for your ticket over there, you go down to their holding cells and volunteer to be the first one to take the red hot bayonet and start cutting out their eyes...  or better yet, how about you hang them by their feet and beat them with split bamboo for an hour or two.

Tell ya what, grow up, cuz I guarantee you that there is no way in hell you'd have the balls to "torture" one of these terrorists.  So, why not act like a civilized human being, and stop trying to impress people on this bbs with the internet tough guy act.

Oh, and that goes for everyone else in this thread too.. the advocation of "torture" to "ensure they never do it again" is absolutely BS and will do nothing but escalate the tensions and be cause for further terrorist acts.  Take the BS stupidity that happend at Abu Gahrib (sp) prison.  That wasn't even torture and it sure helped bolster the ranks of the insurgents.  The only thing that is going to work to end terrorism is to catch those responsible and use legit trials and executions if found guilty, better intel to help prevent terrorist acts, and the end to coddling of nations that support terroism.  Thats it.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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3 hostage takers captured alive
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2004, 06:42:05 PM »
I trust the Russian will do the right thing to these perople that slaughtered 200 children.

Dont you?

Offline opus

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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2004, 06:50:15 PM »
I agree with most - first instinct is to slowly torture them - perhaps removing their skin over a week. But in the end it would do more damage to the person doing the torture. I'd say shoot them in the head and be done with them.  Well maybe hit them in the face with an axe and then shoot them. Or maybe remove a certain apendage, shove it in their mouth and then shoot them...

I dunno, I just can't cant imagine the abaration that would prey on school children.

Offline kevykev56

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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2004, 07:03:40 PM »
Story I heard a while back. I checked snopes.com and it is undetermined. True or not Its worth a thought.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS . . . it worked once in our History . . .
Once in US history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The US soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch. They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



RHIN0
RHIN0 Retired C.O. Sick Puppies Squadron

Offline OneWordAnswer

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3 hostage takers captured alive
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2004, 07:32:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by OneWordAnswer
Interrogation.


Infiltration.

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2004, 08:00:07 PM »
kevykev.......

 It work for the British in late 1800s , stopped like hitting a brick wall.

   Give them a fair trial, if convicted , have a public execution, open the bellys of 3 pigs and spread on top of bodies in grave.

 Cover bodies,tell them this will happen from now on, whether taken alive or dead.

  If there are those that think this is cruel, tell us what you think those poor kids lives are worth.

 I dont think torture is right or will do any good .
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 08:02:20 PM by demaw1 »

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2004, 08:12:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I trust the Russian will do the right thing to these perople that slaughtered 200 children.
 


Nothing they do will bring the children back.
sand

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2004, 08:33:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Nothing they do will bring the children back.


Gee Whiz Captain Obvious!

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2004, 08:35:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Nothing they do will bring the children back.


True, but they might do something to prevent more from being murdered.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2004, 08:36:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
True, but they might do something to prevent more from being murdered.


Not anything they would or wouldnt do to those 3 captured.

Offline Wolfala

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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2004, 08:44:07 PM »
You want a good response - I suggest you read this suggestion offered by the US Navy magazine Proceedings:


http://www.usni.org/Proceedings/Articles03/prolayton03.htm#potential


The new Arab approach to conflict is an adaptation of the revolutionary warfare of the second half of the 20th century.1 Assassins using this new way of war now swim among the populations of the world.2 With cheap, unrestricted global air travel provided by Western technology, they can deploy wherever they wish; there are no front lines or safe rear areas. The assassins make effective use of liberal immigration policies that have permitted large numbers of Middle Eastern migrants to settle in the West. Small numbers of fellow travelers and sympathizers are distributed throughout Western nations, able to be activated to provide local support, protection, and knowledge for deploying assassins. Their command-and-control system relies on commercial communications systems and business application cryptography. This makes their control system strong, redundant, secure, and global and the assassins hard to detect, track, and target.

The new Arab way of war is parasitic. Local supporters acquire weapons and explosives, provide safe houses, arrange transportation, and steal or hire vehicles. Assassins fly in, carry out attacks, and fly out quickly, avoiding arrest. Relying completely on local sources, they can strike deep into the Western heartlands, mimicking the strategic air attacks characteristic of the West.

Foot soldiers employed in this way of war usually are male and middle class and often well-educated, with strong religious fervor. A good education is necessary to operate independently and covertly in Western societies. The most dedicated assassins come from countries with a well-established, openly anti-Western education system antagonistic to secular societies, modernism, and human rights. A consuming spiritual passion, with a commitment bordering on fanaticism, is a valuable attribute for members of a small group when deployed into hostile countries. Given these warfare techniques, Muslims seem likely to remain the prime source of recruits.

Intentionally, there is no obvious state involvement. In his attack, the assassin dies or melts into the crowd, providing no proof of who is responsible. This tactic is meant to confuse and frustrate a legally justifiable response, as the Western paradigm based on the 1648 Peace of Westphalia assumes a state-versus-state conflict. Avoiding giving the West a defined, obvious state opponent is a rational strategy peculiar to the Arab way of war.

The Arab combat style imposes small financial burden on its parent societies, allowing long and protracted wars without inflicting economic hardship. Employing only small numbers of personnel with few needs, wars can be financed privately and seemingly remain independent of overt government support.

A major innovation of the Arab way of war is the deliberate targeting of civilians. The assassins' rhetoric makes no distinction between civilian and military targets. Attacking civilians guarantees global attention as the media, reflecting global values, has a horror of the infliction of cruelty on noncombatants. Attacking civilians is perceived by the assassins as the most direct route to influence global opinion and to affect the national will of the nations struck. Attacks usually are conducted with considerable skill, timing, expertise, and precision but are designed to kill absolutely indiscriminately. Given this, the strategic aim of attacks is hard to discern.4 Violence customarily is conceived as a means to an end, but the essence in this style of war seems to be inflicting terror. Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik notes: "Terror is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose on him.


INHERENT PROBLEMS

"The manner of Arab warfare is intentionally designed contrary to the modern international laws of war. Deliberately attacking civilians, noncombatants, women, and children is against the moral codes of all religions—including Islam. Such actions also violate the ethical codes enshrined in the U.N. human rights charters. The leaders directing such acts are vulnerable to charges of war crimes and international human rights trials. Any country that harbors them inherently appears as an outlaw state operating outside of the civilized world and in defiance of U.N. conventions.

Middle Eastern societies frequently criticize the immoral and lax ethical stance of the secular and materialist West. It is ironic that their chosen way of war makes their assassins appear immoral and unprincipled, which may be why their commanders seek not to identify themselves. Anonymity provides safety from accusations of moral bankruptcy.

Although the tactics of the Arab system rely almost completely on the civilian technology and resources of those nations being attacked, the assassins generally originate from another nation-state. A specific government may not support assassins openly, but to thrive the assassins rely on the acquiescence, sympathy, and often active support of the population from which they came. A society has created them and continues to provide financing, safe harbor, and training. "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." The silence of the good men of the Middle East implies a terrible consent.

Solution:

The West now has no choice. For many years the Arab way of war was ignored and its brutal methods overlooked, but this option now is impossible. The societies of the Middle East have forced the West to retaliate with a multifaceted response that is well under way. This response may be complemented by a focus on on denying the support base that keeps the assassins operational.

A dilemma the West faces is whom to hold responsible for the assassins' attacks. The Western warfare paradigm holds the government of the hostile nation-state responsible rather than the people. In the modern Arab conflict style, the people, not the government, often bear responsibility, especially in situations where the central government is weak, fragmented, ineffectual, or corrupt. The West's indignation must be focused on the societies, not just the governments of the nations from which the assassins originate. Members of the societies directly or indirectly supporting attacks must understand they will be held responsible and pay a price for their support.

There is a pressing need to deter the responsible Middle Eastern societies from their chosen path of escalating terrorism. Several Middle Eastern states harbor sizable elements that support the Arab way of war. Those that support this method of conflict have been identified by their actions over several decades. They exist in unfriendly states such as Iran and Syria, but also in friendly nations such as Saudi Arabia, whose children financed, directed, and undertook the 11 September attacks. This population support base is as vulnerable to attack as are the societies of the West. Focusing attention on the support base would be contentious and controversial. However, the West must be innovative and take advantage of inherent weakness in the Arab conflict paradigm to frustrate the steady intensification of violence directed against its citizens.

The West could retaliate with random and indiscriminate attacks on particular Middle Eastern cities, thereby replicating the Arab warfare approach, but this goes against centuries of Western efforts to limit the impact of war and is completely unacceptable.6 Not the whole societies of those Middle Eastern nations involved, but only a small, discernable sliver of these societies should be held accountable and deterred from further support of the Arab way of war. The assassins inevitably are from the middle class, with their commanders among the more wealthy members of the country. The middle and wealthy classes have great power in their own societies at the local level, and more real influence with the masses than their usually despotic governments. If the majority of the middle and wealthy classes determined to no longer directly or indirectly support the Arab style of conflict, this would have a significant impact. Without an active support base, and with the possibility of their activities being compromised at any time, assassins' freedom of action would be curtailed severely.

An intense, relentless psychological campaign could be undertaken targeting the middle and wealthy classes of the Middle Eastern nations involved. Mass-marketing methods may offer insight into how to apply long-term, focused psychological pressure. The aim of such a campaign would be to make each individual perceive being held personally responsible and targeted for his or her support of the Arab way of war. The proud, strongly religious societies of the Middle East may be vulnerable to considerable self-doubt about the moral bankruptcy of their actions and their pronounced ethical decline compared to the remainder of the world. This effort would complement the other measures of defense and containment already being undertaken. Consideration also could be given to applying economic pressure, restrictions, and constraints, such as those used against South Africa during the apartheid years.

Incentives should be offered as well. Easy means should be provided to allow individuals to relay information concerning members of their societies engaging in acts of war. If individuals or groups tire of the difficulties caused by supporting the assassins, an opportunity should be given for them to make a positive contribution to overcoming the problems inflicted. There would be many false reports, but occasionally something of real value would be passed. The possibility of this occurring would create a sense of vulnerability among assassin organizations.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2004, 08:49:06 PM by Wolfala »


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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2004, 08:50:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Not anything they would or wouldnt do to those 3 captured.


Not so sure about that. They might learn of many associates that didn't participate in this particular slaughter. Or, they might make an example of them that would give others so inclined a pause.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2004, 09:07:43 PM »
I dont see that.  If they put them in jail they become martyrs and some other bunch will do another pointless operation to free them by blackmail. More die, rinse away the blood and gore and then repeat...

If they make a big trial and kill them, then thats just another martyrdom.

Best thing to do imo is to torture them for information and payback and then, in due time, shoot them in the back of the head - all quitely and without much fanfare.

The terrprists will do their own thing, and so must the Russians.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2004, 09:14:52 PM »
I pray for Russia and the Russian people in dealing with the terrorists. This tragedy just completely breaks my heart.

It boggles my mind that people can be so heartless and cruel.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2004, 09:24:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I though you said you were from Croatia Grun ... you sound very Serb to me though.

It's not like the Russians have been treating the Chechens with silk gloves in this conflict. Becoming terrorists is rather counterproductive if you're trying to fight terrorism.


What experience does your country have with terrorists?