USSAF Statistics for 1944

[Crumpp]

When did you decide to write a book Crumpp, and what kind of book will it be?

About 4 months ago, Gscholz.

Started digging into the technical stuff on the FW-190A.  There are numerous myths about the aircraft that have been passed along and taken a life of their own.  Especially on this side of the pond.

The earlier versions are covered in detail but the later ones are glossed over by most texts.  

Managed to get a hold of some great sources including several which are closed to the public and bring to light lots of new information.  Since Sept 11th over 10,000 rolls of microfilm of captured Luftwaffe documents in storage have been cataloged that are in an archive closed to the general public.

I got in touch with pilots who flew the aircraft in combat and scored many victories in it.  Soon I will interview allied pilots who fought against it.

The design team for the FW-190 was amazing.  On a regular basis they met with pilots to discuss improvements in the design.  They even flew the plane in combat themselves as part of the factory defense flight.  Hundreds of "tweaks" were made to the design.  

The NASM just finished restoring an FW-190A9.  The man that headed up the project calls it the "Teutonic Bearcat" and in many areas he says it was superior both technically and in performance.

All of the pilots I have interviewed confirm that the FW-190A8 was the most nimble version of the FW-190A's.  The FW-190A5 was the worst performing version in regards to maneuverability.  It is the 190 equivalent to the first production version of the Bf-109G6.
Crumpp

[VooDoo]

I found it. Your figures are total sorties of All types.
Sure. Because you've said:

"Total number of sorties flown by the Luftwaffe in all fronts during 1944 - 66,300"

"by the Luftwaffe" is not "by the single engine dayfighters" . And I think that its not only "single engine dayfighters", but "single engine dayfighters of the Reichsverteidigung".

Considering the number of fighters the Luftwaffe fielded this seems correct.
For the Reichsverteidigung - yes. For the whole Luftwaffe - no.

This is against a force that averages in 1944 1000+ bombers and 500-700 close escort fighters.
Its OK against 250-500 LW single engine dayfighters. As for fighters 1,5-3 to 1.

The 8.6: 1 ratio is from the USAAF as it the ratio of kills per 1000.
You mean US pilotes claimed 8,6 kills per 1000 sorties ?

If you analyze the Luftwaffe casualty figures
Do you have Reichsverteidigung 1943 losses ? Espessialy from US bomber gunners ?

[Crumpp]

And I think that its not only "single engine dayfighters", but "single engine dayfighters of the Reichsverteidigung".

No it's for the entire Luftwaffe.

Its OK against 250-500 LW single engine dayfighters. As for fighters 1,5-3 to 1.

No the 8.6:1 is the USAAF's figure for average contact ratio in Western Europe on an escort mission.  It's not mine.

No what you fail to factor in the actual number of A/C in contact.  A plane in the air is not the same as a plane in the fight.  Only a handful of interceptions were ever made in any force.  This was the crutch of Gallands "Knock out blow"

IIRC,

1. Gather the forces to field 400 fighters IN CONTACT. By the current statistics he needed to launch 1000 fighters to guarantee 400 would make contact with the bombers.  He managed to gather 90 percent of the forces but then watched them get squandered in "Operation Bodenplatte".

2.  Do this TWO times and statistically the LW would have caused enough casualties to halt the daylight bombing campaign temporarily.  Based on past casualty figures vs. dayfighters that made contact and past experience halting the daylight bombing campaign in 1943.

The LW was never able to achieve this even once.  They never got 400 fighters in contact and could only achieve around 500 in the air on a handful of occasions.

You mean US pilotes claimed 8,6 kills per 1000 sorties ?

No it is a ratio used for strategic planning.  It represents the numeric advantage in the air.  8.6 USAAF fighter's vs. 1 Luftwaffe fighter.
Current doctrine calls for a 10:1 ratio to achieve Air Supremacy over an adversary.  This is one of the things that made strategic planners do cheetah flips during the Cold War.  All of NATO's are power could not even come close to achieve this over the Soviet Air Force.

The kill ratio is:

For every 1000 sorties the Luftwaffe averaged 40.9 allied A/C destroyed.

For every 1000 sorties the USAAF averaged 12.3 Axis A/C destroyed.

This a natural byproduct of existing in a target rich enviroment.
The each Luftwaffe fighter had an average of 8.6 targets vs. the USAAF pilot had 1 target with 7.6 other guys competing to shoot it down.

Espessialy from US bomber gunners ?

Gunner claims are a complete waste of time to examine.  Everyone I have done has resulted in a HUGE discrepancy when compared with the oppositions losses.  In Schwienfurt the B17 gunners claimed more German Fighters destroyed than were even present at the battle.  

IIRC only around dozen LW fighters were even damaged and 2-3 pilots were wounded or killed from B17 gunners in that raid.

For morale purposes the 8th USAAF allowed most of the claims to stand.  Even they knew from Ultra intercepts the extreme over inflation and few actual casualties inflicted.

Crumpp

[Angus]

You can find some opinion about the gunner-score from Pierre Closterman's book. He spent some time on planning before D-Day, and was furious about those claims to be taken seriously, - had they been correct, there could have been no Luftwaffe, and the RAF and USAF fighters should have been useless anyway with their modest claims.
Ummm, do I understand it correctly that the LW only mounted 60K sorties in 1944? Looks kinda little to me......

[Crumpp]

Ummm, do I understand it correctly that the LW only mounted 60K sorties in 1944? Looks kinda little to me......

Single engine dayfighters.  That is what the paper says!

That is 180 planes in the air everyday all year long.  Considering the number the days they could not fly and the few numbers of planes they could launch.  Everyday you don't launch a plane is an extra 180 planes in the air.

Now the data could be incomplete when the record was filed.  Check out the LW OOB I posted.  Look at the serviceable plane numbers.  I would think this figure is definately in the ballpark.

Usually only one sortie was flown to intercept the bombers.  Rarely would a second one be flown.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Christer Bergstrom claims the LW made 650-1000 sorties per day on many occasions.

[Crumpp]

Christer Bergstrom claims the LW made 650-1000 sorties per day on many occasions.

I am sure they did Milo.  However we are talking just the dayfighters.  All it would take would be 3 days of "no-fly" weather and you have 800 sorties you can do for JUST FIGHTERS.  

There were weeks that went by in the winter with little to no air activity.

Lumping in the bombers and ground attack units the LW could have easily made 650-1000 sorties a day on the Eastern front.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

That was on the Western Front Crumpp.

Here is his words:

"The Luftwaffe had the required capacity, and even much more than that. They were able to bring 650 fighters into the air in a single day over the Western Front, occasionally even over a thousand fighters in a single day."

[Crumpp]

"The Luftwaffe had the required capacity, and even much more than that. They were able to bring 650 fighters into the air in a single day over the Western Front, occasionally even over a thousand fighters in a single day."

That is correct Milo.

They were able to do it twice with 650 fighters.

They did it once with 900, on Operation Bodenplatte.

The problem was getting them into contact with the bombers.

The largest intercepts were flown in December of '44 when the front line units began to get beefed up for Gallands "knockout blow".

On Dec 16th the Western front was reinforced leaving just JG301 and JG300 in Germany.  After Dec 16th some large intercepts were flown averaging 400 fighters with two being around 650.

On January 1 Bodenplatte was launched and the Jadgwaffe was smashed.  The reserves meant for the "knockout blow" were gone.

However the key word is CAPACITY.

"The Luftwaffe had the required capacity, and even much more than that. They were able to bring 650 fighters into the air in a single day over the Western Front, occasionally even over a thousand fighters in a single day."

 

The REALITY is:

Never were they able to get 400 fighters to make contact with the bomber stream.

Good book to learn about the difficulties the Jadgwaffe faced in intercept missions is:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0887403484

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

The problem is Crumpp, he meant on many occasions. Take it up with him.

Have had that book for a long time.

[senna]

FW-190 A is one of the best air to air fighters in AH, peeriood.

[Crumpp]

The problem is Crumpp, he meant on many occasions. Take it up with him.

He doesn't say that Milo.  He says they had the capacity to field 650 fighters and on occasion 1000.  Yes they did.

I am sure Galland would have been extremely happy if what you are saying was true.

Have had that book for a long time

It's a good read and illustrates point well.

Crumpp

[VooDoo]

No it's for the entire Luftwaffe.
OK. This means LW fighters were only twice better than kamikaze. From O. Gröhler, "Stärke, Verteilung und Verluste der deutschen Luftwaffe im zweiten Weltkrieg":

Total LW dayfighters losses in jan-oct '44 - 13964. 66300/13964=4,75. Kamikazes manage to stay alive at a rate of 2 sorties per kill or so.

No the 8.6:1 is the USAAF's figure for average contact ratio in Western Europe on an escort mission. It's not mine.
Contact ratio is another thing. If somebody wants to destroy your house and you just cant find him - thats your and only your  problem.

No what you fail to factor in the actual number of A/C in contact.
Its not me who failed but LW .

Gather the forces to field 400 fighters IN CONTACT.
Yeah... Sure... Triple available fighters... Quadruple...

By the current statistics he needed to launch 1000 fighters to guarantee 400 would make contact with the bombers.
US pilots made contacts with 8 to 1 ratio while german were launching 250-500 fighters and US - 500-700. It looks like 4 to 1 ratio to get 1 german fighter in contact with the  US. So if you want 400 german fighters to make contact you should launch 1600 of them. Not bad. Germans must have 2-3 to 1 numerical superiority to achieve... hmmm.... not victory but... something.

Gunner claims are a complete waste of time to examine
Do you have any details about Grislawski fight 24 January 1944 ?

[GRUNHERZ]

Crummp "Teutonic Bearcat"  is funny since in fact the Bearcat was directly inspired by Fw190 test flights done by Grumman's chief designer and test pilot Robert Hall..

[Crumpp]

Crummp "Teutonic Bearcat" is funny since in fact the Bearcat was directly inspired by Fw190 test flights done by Grumman's chief designer and test pilot Robert Hall..

Right! Grunherz It was an improvement in the design incorporating the latest in Piston engine technology.  The area many like to claim Germany was inferior to the allies in aviation technology.  How many times have your heard,  "The Germans did not have good superchargers because they did not have the technology".

I took Larry's expression to mean that thought process was a bunch of baloney.  Haven't been able to press him for details but I will when I talk to him this week.  His statement about the "Bearcat" was immediately followed by praise for the BMW801TS. I did not have time to press him for details but he did comment that he could not believe the technology available then.

Total LW dayfighters losses in jan-oct '44 - 13964. 66300/13964=4,75. Kamikazes manage to stay alive at a rate of 2 sorties per kill or so.

I think your number reflects the entire Luftwaffe and includes A/C destroyed on the ground, Ack, etc, certainly not just the day fighters.
If not I have no idea where this number comes from.  I have an extensive casualty list.

Here is an accurate list broken down for you in November.  It shows the losses for that month by Unit.

http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/OOB/Nov44-1.html

Now in December the Jagdwaffe took some casualties.  Use the back button at the bottom and check it out.  Nowhere near 13,000.  In fact nowhere near even a thousand.

Maybe for the entire war 13,000??

 

Contact ratio is another thing. If somebody wants to destroy your house and you just cant find him - that's your and only your problem.

Huh? Contact ratio is just that.  The number in contact.  You can further breakdown the contact ratio into contact with fighters, bombers etc...

Crumpp says:
By the current statistics he needed to launch 1000 fighters to guarantee 400 would make contact with the bombers.  

Voodoo says:
US pilots made contacts with 8 to 1 ratio while german were launching 250-500 fighters and US - 500-700. It looks like 4 to 1 ratio to get 1 german fighter in contact with the US.  

The USAAF needed a 8.6:1 contact ratio for the fighters in order to achive a much lower contact ratio for the bombers.

Actually it is more like a 2.5: 1 .  For every 2.5 fighters the Luftwaffe launched.  One could penetrate the 8.6:1 fighter screen and get a shot at a bomber.

Crumpp