USSAF Statistics for 1944

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting Guppy, explain please.

How?  Broadhurst improved tactical airpower use and it co-ordination with ground forces as I understand it.

His conclusions are not wrong.  He thinks the USAAF accomplishments in the MTO overshadowed Broadhurst.  His conclusion's simply do not acknowledge the efforts of the USAAF allies and their parallel accomplishments.  IMO he does not give enough credit to the RAF for their roll in the MTO or in Europe.

That does not cast doubt on his facts or his conclusions.

Nothing to do with Luftwaffe loss reporting procedures though.

The point taken from that passage is the Luftwaffe's status report procedures has cause confusion to this day about the air war.  

This stems from their design as a tactical airforce. By reading the morning or evening status a commander knew right then how many planes he could put in the sky.  The older that information was the less of value and accurate it was to him.

So when you say the Luftwaffe took "x" number of losses, you have to be very specific about the timeframe and know exactly what point on the curve you are counting losses.

Every plane that was not 100 percent would be reported as a loss for that day.  In the morning that same "loss" could take off and fly the next days missions.

Crumpp

The claim was there was no connection between Jubiliee and Overlord.  My connection was Broadhurst as he was involved in Jubilee, then the development of Tac air based on the hard lessons learned at Jubilee, to the success over the beaches.

That's all

I was probably a bit strong on the 'casting doubt' bit.  Better framed as his opinion as it was mine that Broadhurst is the connection that links Jubilee to Overlord.

No big deal either way

Dan/Slack

[Crumpp]

My connection was Broadhurst as he was involved in Jubilee, then the development of Tac air based on the hard lessons learned at Jubilee, to the success over the beaches.

Your right.  The Allied services did learn lessons that were directly applicable and contributed to the success of Normandy.

I think what Caldwell is saying is the "air umbrella" theory was not one of them and was a bankrupt concept.  Except for some temporary battlefield objectives it did not work for the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front either.

For Normandy the Allies established Air Superiority over Europe and then Air Supremacy over the Beachhead.

Least that is what I get out of Caldwells comments.

I was probably a bit strong on the 'casting doubt' bit. Better framed as his opinion as it was mine that Broadhurst is the connection that links Jubilee to Overlord.

No problem at all bro.  I felt he does not acknowledge the contributions of the RAF to the Air War.  He seems to regulate them to a minor role after 1942 in the War Diaries.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

BTW, Crumpp, can you check LW losses (190) on the 24th of June in 1944?(Or did you already).

At 0700 Second and Third Gruppen and III/JG54 were scrambled and directed towards a large Allied Force headed for Paris.  The formations collided between Evreux and Dreux.  The allied aircraft were 2nd TAF Mustangs from Nos. 19 and Nos. 65 Squadrons.  Four No. 65 Squadron Mustangs went down in the subsequent dogfights, claimed by Oblt. Werner stoll, Lt Hoffmann, and six Green Heart pilots.  Hptm. Matoni, who was once again leading most Second Gruppe missions, claimed a spitfire, but lacked a witness.  Uffz. Hermann Ayerle of the 12th Staffle was shot down and fired at in his parachute.  Ayerle was injured in a hard landing after a swift descent.  A second third Gruppe Messerschmitt was shot down, possibly in this combat; its pilot was uninjured.

Oblt Werner Stoll was shot down by "Three Thunderbolts" according to his loss report, and bailed out with burns.  No P-47 pilot claimed an FW-190 today, and Stol was probably another victim of the RAF Mustang pilots, Who claimed a total of 7-0-1 FW-190's and one Bf-109.

JG26 lost 1 FW-190A8 and 1 Bf-109G6,  Both pilots wounded but RTD'd.  III/JG54's losses are unknown.

The four claims were confirmed and awarded.

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
At 0700 Second and Third Gruppen and III/JG54 were scrambled and directed towards a large Allied Force headed for Paris.  The formations collided between Evreux and Dreux.  The allied aircraft were 2nd TAF Mustangs from Nos. 19 and Nos. 65 Squadrons.  Four No. 65 Squadron Mustangs went down in the subsequent dogfights, claimed by Oblt. Werner stoll, Lt Hoffmann, and six Green Heart pilots.  Hptm. Matoni, who was once again leading most Second Gruppe missions, claimed a spitfire, but lacked a witness.  Uffz. Hermann Ayerle of the 12th Staffle was shot down and fired at in his parachute.  Ayerle was injured in a hard landing after a swift descent.  A second third Gruppe Messerschmitt was shot down, possibly in this combat; its pilot was uninjured.

Oblt Werner Stoll was shot down by "Three Thunderbolts" according to his loss report, and bailed out with burns.  No P-47 pilot claimed an FW-190 today, and Stol was probably another victim of the RAF Mustang pilots, Who claimed a total of 7-0-1 FW-190's and one Bf-109.

JG26 lost 1 FW-190A8 and 1 Bf-109G6,  Both pilots wounded but RTD'd.  III/JG54's losses are unknown.

The four claims were confirmed and awarded.

Crumpp

Interesting as no Spits were lost to enemy action that day.  A Navy Seafire was lost in a landing accident.

Guess that Spit must have been a Mustang III.

Dan/Slack

[Crumpp]

Interesting as no Spits were lost to enemy action that day.

My Guess as well.  Most likely a Mustang III if it was anything at all.

JG 26 claimed 4 Mustang III's that day in addition to the "mystery Spitfire".

It seems III/JG54 was in the middle of transitioning from the Bf-109G6 to the FW-190A8.  They flew a mix that day.  My records do not show any casualties for them that day.  

Crumpp

[VooDoo]

What? The shared victories or the propaganda?
No. About not being shot down .

Your number is probably the number of LW fighters DAMAGED.

Its not a probability - I said very clear:
"As I understand explanation - damaged to 75%."

 
They would be reported as losses in the evening status report.
But for nov. '44 we have report for the whole month.

Unless you had the service report you would have no way of telling how many were returned to service by morning through the geschwader maintenance shops.
We can say it easily for nov. 44 and other months from that site .

{I]This reporting system caused the western allies to report the Jagdwaffe destroyed on several occasions before 1944.[/I]
I already said you that Ill not by that US figure based on the int. reports and other such thing - I dont need guesses .

Either way it's an over inflated number.
No. Its OK because 75% (or higher) damaged plane is just that - nonflying rubbish.

It's very important in looking over Luftwaffe losses that you know whether it is from the evening or morning status.
Month, Crumpp, month .

Let me did through my stuff and I will post the Luftwaffe status procedure and definitions.
OK.

Channel based fighter wings.
Hmmm... OK.

The Luftwaffe did.
It wasnt LW it were brits who misunderstood germans .

[Crumpp]

But for nov. '44 we have report for the whole month.

No what we have is a compiled list from the daily reports.  A bean counter (Personnel and Logistics) compiles the status reports and turns in a monthly report.

Understand now?

Crumpp

[Angus]

Ok, it's 24th of june 1944.
RAF 65'th squadron claims 3 190's shot down.
1 was presumably a KIA case, 190 being shot down at high speed at very low alt, in a 6 chase. This exists yet on guncam.
2 were with pilots exiting safely, 1 probably a greenhorn, 1 being rather experienced.
Both confirmed, as caught on guncam.
I wonder if one was Ayerle, since the P51 pilot made a pass over him while he was on the ground, rolling his chute up.
(He passed to get a photo for the confirm). The LW pilot actually waved at the RAF pilot! However it is well possible that he interpreted the pass as an assasination attempt!

BTW, a german former wingco told me that they did a survey of chute shooters. On the Western front,most were US pilots, those who were RAF were in almost every case Polish!!

Anyway, 65 sqn RAF claims 3 190's on the 24th, 2 of those were 190's without a doubt.
Area is Dreux for 2 aircraft, but the 3rd one (where I am unsure of the ID being 100%) is further north or north-west, - even by some bit.

[Crumpp]

JG 26 Losses for the 24th are 1 FW-190A8 and 1 Bf-109G6.  Pretty sure at least one the 190's 65 Squadron claimed was the 109 flown by Ayerle was flying Bf-109G6 "Black 5" WrkN 165177.

Your footage maybe of Stolle who was in FW-190A8 "White 1" WrkN 170384 maybe your man.

Again too.  III/JG54 was flying a mix of FW-190A8's and Bf-109G6.  Although no reportable casualties show up for the day, they may have sustained damaged or even downed A/C.

Crumpp

[VooDoo]

No what we have is a compiled list from the daily reports. A bean counter (Personnel and Logistics) compiles the status reports and turns in a monthly report.
Its exactly that Im talking about. All that "lost/flying next day" sorted out. Planes able to "fly next day" are in the "delivered to/from repair" column. Others are in "lost" column. Very simple.

Understand now?
And you ?

[Crumpp]

All that "lost/flying next day" sorted out.

Your right!  They have peered into the crystal ball and found the number.

Its exactly that Im talking about. All that "lost/flying next day" sorted out. Planes able to "fly next day" are in the "delivered to/from repair" column. Others are in "lost" column. Very simple.

The number you see in the "sent for repairs" comes from the Geschwader maintenance shop.  It is the number of airframes sent to higher maintenace levels for both combat damages, non combat damages, and normal service life repairs/maintenance.

You keep missing the point.

As for the loss column, please review the thread.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Well, out of those 3 aircraft claimed by the 65th sqn, definately none flew again. - They crashed into the ground, 2 of them pilotless.

Oh, edit:
For your work Crumpp, a visit to the film archive of the IWM London is really worth it. It is a hard work though.
Very much guncam footage there, but the archive is messy. I had to  go through a Pile of papers to find anything from the 24/06/44, and those were NOT sorted in any particular order.
If you have a remote plan to visit the IWM let me know, I'll help as much as I can.

[Crumpp]

Well, out of those 3 aircraft claimed by the 65th sqn, definately none flew again. - They crashed into the ground, 2 of them pilotless.

True for this day but not for everycase.  Obviously the guncamera was not the same Aircraft from different angles?  Stoll did claim to have multiple "P 47's" (Mustangs) on his six.  Misidentification was very common.  In fact I have one example of some Mustangs getting into a dogfight with 2 Obfw's in Bf-109G6's.  The 109's managed to shoot each other down (H2H) in the confusion and two Mustangs continued to fight after the 109's went down.  One of the Mustangs got shot down by his own squad mate.  I am sure choice words flew in the ready rooms on both sides of the channel.

If you have a remote plan to visit the IWM let me know, I'll help as much as I can.

Thanks!  I am making plans to visit Europe for Research.  The IWM is on the agenda.  Email you with details when things are finalized.  Of course the offer extends to this side of the pond as well.  The NASM is a great source of information.  The still have wharehouses of microfilmed documents they have not even gone through yet.  Everyday they catalog new finds.  

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Stoll did claim to have multiple "P 47's" (Mustangs) on his six.  Misidentification was very common.  In fact I have one example of some Mustangs getting into a dogfight with 2 Obfw's in Bf-109G6's.  The 109's managed to shoot each other down (H2H) in the confusion and two Mustangs continued to fight after the 109's went down.  One of the Mustangs got shot down by his own squad mate.  I am sure choice words flew in the ready rooms on both sides of the channel.

 

Mis-IDing a 109 and P-51 was common but saying a P-47 is a P-51.  The P-47 and 190 (include the Typhoon as well) were often mis-IDed.  The P-51 and P-47 getting 12" colored bands on wing and tail surfaces to help eleviate this mis-IDing.

[Crumpp]

Mis-IDing a 109 and P-51 was common but saying a P-47 is a P-51. The P-47 and 190 (include the Typhoon as well) were often mis-IDed. The P-51 and P-47 getting 12" colored bands on wing and tail surfaces to help eleviate this mis-IDing.

That is nothing Milo.  Misidentification was REAL common.  Ask Angus about that one MTO Spitfire vs FW-190 fight.  No 190 fighters even in theater much less conducting escort of Italian transports.

I have accounts of 109's flying high cover over Luftwaffe bases bouncing FW-190's coming in for a landing AT THEIR OWN BASE.

One famous case of misidentification is Wutz Galland.  He shot down and killed one of his own pilots.

The "Fog of War" was very thick in the air battles of WWII.

Crumpp