Author Topic: Speculation requested  (Read 1248 times)

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2004, 04:40:00 PM »
That's OK, they were liberals and didn't have guns to protect themselves....

So cut it by 2/3's, and then compare that to the current total.  We look pretty good for a long time, don't we?

Offline -MZ-

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Re: Speculation requested
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2004, 04:44:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
I am wondering what you think would happen if the US government one day just announced that it would not repay the US national debt in any way, shape, or form.


All your dollars would become worthless and the largest financial disaster in human history would begin.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2004, 04:49:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
That's OK, they were liberals and didn't have guns to protect themselves....

So cut it by 2/3's, and then compare that to the current total.  We look pretty good for a long time, don't we?



Let's see, 2/3s = 133 trillion.  At 5% = 6.6 trillion a year.  Well your federal taxes just when up above six fold, and your standard of living has fallen drastically as well.  You enomony is probably still gone because consumption and investment has been severly curtailed.  And your feder government has provided any services yet.  Do you want a military?


Edit: Actually it's worse because all the corps have left because the taxes are too big.

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2004, 04:53:27 PM »
Our current taxes are 30%, at a minimum.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2004, 04:55:55 PM »
Interesting deficit tidbits.
The US goverment "borrowed" 3 trillion from its Social Security funds last year to help general revenues. That 3 trillion is not counted against the national debt.

I think Per capita national debt is now nearly 26000 and growing USD in the states. (not counting the SS loan 35000 probably with that) and in old liberal, commie Canada with universal national health care.
....a little over 12000 USD. And shrinking.

Latest political out rage in canada other then our neeto subs catching fire ..
An outrageos budget surplus (9 billion)that will just be used to pay down the national debt instead of used on social programs!

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2004, 04:59:04 PM »
Pongo, source the 3 trillion dollar number, please.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2004, 04:59:15 PM »
well, what you have to do is get congress to stop spending your tax money on bling bling. To get relected congressmen make deals with each other ( you vote for my pork , i vote for yours).

when your local congressman tells you he just get X millions in "federal funding" for your local bridge, road,park, school,ect ect, you all say YEAH YEAH, GREAT,LETS VOTE HIM BACK IN OFFICE

every congressman does this, some more than others, it depends on how much "power" they have in congress. more "power" more "federal funding". so you can see what happens when all congressman want more bling bling for their districts.

can you say "term limits"

some have tried to get a balanced budget law passed, thats like asking your wife to give up her credit cards, congress will never give up the right to spend your tax money.

it is up to you people to tell congress to stop spending money they don't have, even when they want to spend it on you.

i'm an 'indpendent' and i aprove of this message.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2004, 05:07:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
Our current taxes are 30%, at a minimum.


I screwed up.  The US fed. gov. receives about 2 trillion, I thought it was 1 trillion.

So if we pretend the corps stay around, your taxes would be more than tripled and you still don't have anything for it...once again, like a military.

Now, if you have to pay over 90% of your cash to the government, are you going to work?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2004, 06:01:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizking
Pongo, source the 3 trillion dollar number, please.


worddig

"There is no reliability to budget and debt reporting, in part because political leaders can announce official numbers that are almost meaningless, while careful analysis of implications by experts go all but unreported.

For instance, in 2003 the G. W. Bush administration announced a projected $1.4 trillion deficit over the next 10 years (to 2013) amidst disclaimers from the White House about how the numbers are unreliable and how these deficits aren't very big relative to the size of the U.S. economy. These are examples of the types of disclaimers that are often used to 'fuzz' bad news.

By law, the budget office that prepares these numbers must assume that existing laws expire as planned, and that no new programs are added or subtracted. This permits politicians to extend laws, add programs, etc., in the period after budget announcement, for instance, to make temporary tax cuts permanent, or pass a Medicare prescription-drug package. Then they may hope that something changes in the interim that will improve the news before they (or their successors) must announce the budget numbers the next year, or simply hope for some reaction to taxes that they can exploit. For instance, if federal alternative minimum tax as projected hits 30 million taxpayers due to bracket creep, the pressure to remove it rises, and debt, being paid in the future, seems like less of an issue.

According to Economist Alan Sloan, writing in Newsweek in September 2003, if one assumes that the tax will be eliminated, the prior cuts made permanent, and the drug package passed, these changes alone add $3.6 trillion to the deficit over the same ten-year period.

Another issue is that the numbers do not count other shortfalls and leakage. For instance, in the 2003 projection, the U.S. Department of the Treasury used a $2.4 trillion Social Security surplus to offset its cash shortfall. This means that in 2013, "the government will owe Social Security about $4 trillion, just as baby boomers begin retiring en masse. I don't see how that debt can be honored without huge borrowings from outside investors that would send rates to the moon, or huge cuts in other programs," claimed Sloan.

He thus calculates the total projected deficit using only the published numbers and limited assumptions above at more than five times the $1.4 trillion, or about $7.4 trillion. These numbers further assume spending nothing in Iraq starting Oct. 1, 2005, which seems optimistic, as there are no budgetary nor troop commitments from nations that did not invade as of his publication date.

Business confidence is a major reason to mislead about debt and deficit numbers. Wall Street in general responds poorly to growing debt. The U.S. Office of Management and Budget announcements (such as that in July 2003 that they expected a $455 billion deficit (after subtracting Social Security's surplus) for fiscal 2004) cause interest rates to move up.

"

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2004, 07:24:45 PM »
Pongo--

The figure you quote is based on projections and predictions.  Hence it may turn out to be accurate....or it may not.  It might even prove low.  

It reminds me a lot of the Clinton budget surplus, which was similaly based on predictions; we all saw what happened to that when their economic predictions turned out wrong.

I try to take any such projections with a grain of salt--they're useful, but merely a tool.


The national debt is a point of interest to me because something like 2/3 of our current budget deficit can be attributed to interest we pay on the debt (effectively we sevice the debt by borrowing more).  As long as the debt keeps climbing, that isn't going to get any lower.




J_A_B

Offline Nash

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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2004, 08:02:19 PM »
It'd be akin to America saying "We refuse to pay for the stuff you sent us, but if you could please find it in your heart of hearts to continue sending us stuff, and letting us continue to borrow money from you to not even pay for the stuff, that would be swell."

Offline john9001

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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2004, 08:38:07 PM »
all you anti-american types are having fun hoping for the "fall" of the USA.

i hate to bust up your nice dream , but

so much of the world depends on trade with the USA, ( half of chinas exports go to the USA),and they own so much debt in govt bonds, and they own so much biz in US ( BP), that they could not let the US default on govt bonds.

what would happen is the world would bail out the USA with debt forgivness and low intrest loans, as has been done with many other countrys in the past.


i'm john9001 and i have approved this posting.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2004, 08:43:30 PM »
pssst, john....

The US actually following through on J_A_B's ludicrous hypothetical would be a distater for the entire world.

Don't think for a second that anyone is hoping for it to actually happen.

Nobody is really dumb enough to make such a scenario real.

Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2004, 08:55:08 PM »
Ya know the funny thing about all this...

think of this scenario...

the US made the UK pay the US back for all the lend lease items from WW2 adjusted for interest.  If the US made the Russian's pay the US back for the same.  Or better yet, what if the US just called in all the loans owed it.

Our national debt would be paid 2 times over.

So, unless the rest of you pansies choose to acknowledge that the US finacial health controls the worlds finacial health, which you won't, get a grip, and realise, that according to your idiocy, if the US said NO to it's national debt, nothing more that a depression would happen, while foreign goods stopped coming in, and the US would be forced to become self sufficient...

hmmm, maybe it's not such a bad idea.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Lizking

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« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2004, 09:27:10 PM »
Bodhi, Google is your friend.