Author Topic: Something about E-Fighting  (Read 4203 times)

Offline humble

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2001, 11:52:00 AM »
Lot's of good advice...we used to call the vertical 8 a "double"...old saying was any good stick can do a double...it's a triple thats tough :).

I'd like to add a couple of general comments:

There are three basic fighting styles in Air Combat...

1) "angles" fighting...were the pilot trades stored energy for a positional advantage.

2) "B&Z" fighting...were the pilot uses a positional/energy advantage to stage repeated attacks against a foe with inferior E/position. The attacker will persist till he approaches a nuetral energy state and then bug out to regain superiority.

3) Energy fighting is focused on aquiring and/or maintaining an energy advantage that will be maintained till the endgame.

The spit IX is probably the best energy fighter in the game (IMO). I often find that I'm flying the spit at reduced or zero throttle for a majority of any fight to avoid building excess E. The goal; is to maintain an advantage but not to the point were you over extend. The best E fighters never let you catch a breath...there always over and above ...but never more than 1.4-1.8 out till they were you down to the point you have almost no options that work.

I have a lot clips of me in an F6 against good sticks flying an E fighting style...I'll be more than happy to post a couple of em where I get hunted down and hosed...and a couple were I manage to turn the tide...it's pretty easy to see the differences that lead to success and failure.

E fighting is easily the toughest to master and most enjoyable to use...but it's a long learning curve

PS

If you think you've mastered the spitty...go find DMF (leviathan now) or Algy...sure I'm leaving a few out...and make sure. :)

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Offline Kick

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
Great point, Humble, about flying an energy engagement"...they're always over and above ..." but you left one out:"behind" Good energy fighters are continuously driving their plane into the targets rear hemisphere from that position of advantage.
This makes the bogey very uncomfortable and generally counters with an E bleeding turn to reposition the attacker in the front.
     
               Kick

Offline akak

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2001, 04:48:00 PM »
And a quad is even tougher <BG>.  That's one of the things I'm going to miss about AW.  Nothing was more satisfying than the moment the bogie you're fighting realizes that he's one stalled out dead guy when he sees you do that quad Immel.  Gotta love RR flying <BG>

 
Quote
Originally posted by humble:
Lot's of good advice...we used to call the vertical 8 a "double"...old saying was any good stick can do a double...it's a triple thats tough  :).


Offline -ammo-

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2001, 05:57:00 PM »
another point that could be made. The spit IX is an excellent energy fighter. It is only hampered by its limited speed in the arena in which it competes.  What makes a fighter a good energy fighter is its ability to build and maintian energy. The G10 is king!  It builds energy extremely fast. A good pilot can turn a bad situration into an offensive one in a hurry with this AC. An LA7 is also a very good energy AC with its superb acceleration.

All fighters can be flown in an evnergy style effectively, but several of them shine in that role. the pilot who can manage his energy and read his adversaries energy well, will be tought ot beat.  Add a great ability to know his situation all the time and read it well, and you got someone that knows how to survive.
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Offline Spatula

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2001, 10:39:00 PM »
It seems to me your original question is actaully two:

1. How do you manage to avoid stuffing up pass after pass when Boomin and Zoomin?

2. How do you E fight?


They are kinda related, but lets answer them individually:
Q1.
First, good gunnery is a must, you must be able to hit them from low to extreme angles off. This takes practice in two forms. You must know your planes gun ballistics like your own hand, know how they react under different G loadings and angles, their rate of fire, effective hitting power etc (ie how many times you need to score a hit). Secondly, you have to be able to predict the movement of the enemy. He will always move 90 degrees to his wing line (ie bank and use elevator). Carefull study of his movements in the first pass will suggest the next pass and where to pull lead in anticipation of where he will be and fire there. Using your rudder to track the con as he breaks is a good tactic as well as increases strike time. Just remember dont try pull lead in the same plane of manuever, you can use a different plane of manuever to effectively put your nose in front of him if only for a few seconds (now you can track breifly with the rudder to score the hits).
My advice is to pick a plane and learn its gun ballistics inside out, and practice various angle-off gun approaches against the offline drones. you will find that when you get better you can nail em under your nose (ie out of view).


Q2.
E fighting is about building up an energy advantage over your enemy. Different planes can build its own energy levels and/or bleed the energy levels of your opponent in different ways. For example, the G10 is a great accelerator and climber, and yet the P51 is a great hi-speed turner and zoomer, so abviously the tactics for E fighting in those planes differ.
I fly the P51 and been flying it in AH since beta. P51s dont accelerate to well, so you need to keep your speed very high and do as little horizontal turns as posible, while makeing your opponent turn in the horizontal alot. You want to turn smarter (ie use the vert) than your opponent and on your terms not his. Use your speed advantage to get you seperation and use a good reversal (half-cuban 8 or immelman or chandelle) once you have enough room to reverse and build effective maneuvering speed before the HO merge. The trick is to trick them into turning tight to follow you as you go past and thus waste their E. If they dont, then you know your up against a cool customer, if they keep doing it, you will grind their E down in a few passes, upon when you zoom skyward in a tempting fashion and let them follow you then reverse over and nail em. The idea is to keep them slow, ie out of their effective cornering speed but yet you are well within yours and have plenty of speed, sooner or later you'll get them in a compromising position floundering around and you can easily out turn them and nail em. Also learn the Hi yoyo and lag-roll and know when to use em, they will get you kills its that simple  :)
As for 109s, dont ask me, i suck in them.
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Offline HocBao

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
These posts are fantastic. Thanks to everyone for helping rookies like me. Thanks to Keez for getting it started.

Here is a specific situation that often leads to my death. I attack a spit in my P51 from above, zoom past, take a shot if its there, then pull up for a vertical loop, and roll to line him up for another pass. To my surprise he follows me up. Great! this must be the rope-a-dope situation I always read about. But he keeps coming up, never stalls, so I continue pulling my loop over the top thinking my superior E-fighter will continue to gain E. I go into another loop. He contiues to follow. This time he must have improved his E situation because I can't get over the top soon enough to get out of his gun position. I die.

What am I doing wrong? Did I just misjudge his E relative to mine thinking that my higher alt means higher E?

Thanks again for all the advice!

Hoc

Offline Bluedog

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2001, 07:14:00 AM »
Just a tip......find your 'G' meter ( the one with Accel written on it ) and learn to use it.
Zero G dives give the quickest accelleration possible.

<S> Blue

Hammerhead

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2001, 08:25:00 AM »
HocBao,
Your higher alt means higher E, but the spit can kill u even if he is stalling. He can hang on his prop pretty well....  :p

Offline Rocket

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
Hoc,
  How are you making your attack exactly?
The ideal attack situation is to dive in and dip low early, come UP into the bad guy from his low 6.  This gives 2 advantages, one is hopefully a surprise attack and two is that fact you are already moving upward when you pass his plane. This will make him pull harder if you miss your shot and use more E to get on your 6.  
If you attack on the downstroke you will dive down past the bad guy before starting to move upward again.  This allows him to follow you easier and for him to work less to keep his E up for his counter attack.

Always remember E does not just equal speed.  E is a state, it is altitude + speed.  If the spit is faster than you are at the moment but you have some altitude you may not have a huge E advantage.  Any mistakes in your attack could cause excess E bleed and bam he has the advantage even tho you started with altitude advantage.  Judging an bogies E state is a huge part of the game.  Remember at some point ALL planes are E fighters and ALL planes are angle fighters.  If you miss judge what you would consider normally an angle fighter's E state that angle fighter may just beat you with E.  

Learn to read the other guys E state and you have won half the battle already  :)

s!
Rocket

Offline -ammo-

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HocBao:
Here is a specific situation that often leads to my death. I attack a spit in my P51 from above, zoom past, take a shot if its there, then pull up for a vertical loop, and roll to line him up for another pass. To my surprise he follows me up. Great! this must be the rope-a-dope situation I always read about. But he keeps coming up, never stalls, so I continue pulling my loop over the top thinking my superior E-fighter will continue to gain E. I go into another loop. He contiues to follow. This time he must have improved his E situation because I can't get over the top soon enough to get out of his gun position. I die.

What am I doing wrong? Did I just misjudge his E relative to mine thinking that my higher alt means higher E?

Thanks again for all the advice!

Hoc

Here's how you beat that spit. What you are doing is immediately after your pass on the spit  you go into your zoom. IE you pull hard on the stick sending your AC skyward. this robs you of some energy and if you were to continue thsi series of manuevers with the spit he would eventually equalize enmergy with you because 1) h builds energy faster than you 2) you are giving some energy up everytime you pull back into your zoom.

try this instead. When you dive on the low spit, if you dont hit him don't pull hard back into a zoom immediately. Instead level out and continue to fly past him and *gradually* pull back on the stick to recover your altitude. You will not lose the energy you stored in the speed from your diving pass, and you can gain darn near every ounce of your altitude back (depending on how far down you had to dive to attack the spit). A good pilot can make you overshoot and its hard to avoid this, but doing what I have described will foil any chance he had at gaining a shot oppertunity from that overshoot.

Gluck!

ammo
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Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline aknimitz

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2001, 11:16:00 AM »
Just a twist to what ammo said ... I dont like to level out as I zoom down.  A good stick will take a snapshot and hit a percentage of the time.  I like to do one of two things on a BnZ.  

Fist, when I boom, if I see I am not going to have a shot, I like to zoom behind the plane.  This prevents any possibility of an overshoot and giving up a shot.  I will not yank and go vertical, but a 2G climb and then transfer that to a vertical climb out.

Second, if I see I am going to overshoot, I prefer to do so passing under the bandit, not level with, not slightly above.  I pass under, am hauling ass, and I watch to see what he does.  Typically they arent looking for you below them, so you have a small element of surprise stored up.  If he continues onward, I will gradually extend down below his guns until D700 or so, then go into a 2G climb and build back up yer E.

Patience I think is the most important thing to consider in E fighting.  You have to be willing to be boring, and extend and recover E after making a firing pass.  

Good luck!

Nim

Offline humble

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
Got a question on this last part of thread...did you get under your bogie by a bit...also was there a hard turn by con you followed involved at all...way back when as a trainer I used to spend alot of time with newer sticks teaching em to stay hi.

Usually they'd dive in screaming...i'd break up and into pass and roll lift vector in front of em as they screamed under...and catch em as they came screaming back up thru.

What happens is pretty simple...the increased energy from dive hurts turn rate...the con goes under and begins to pull max G's trying to go hi...this is a serious E drain and scrapes of very serious E...now you look back and see the "target" unexpectedly close...so you pull harder to evade and get hammered at top.

As a rule I taught never open a fight with a nose down shot...it leads to a loss of angles and often builds excess E...if you commit to a B&Z attack then drive down thru and extend with a zoom...don't pull serious G's (over 3) at any time or for even lower
G's for longer than a few seconds.

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Offline Kweassa

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2001, 01:40:00 AM »
Small Observation on E-fighting Styles
 
 Though the concept is the same, the styles of energy fighting is very different between planes. In relation to the questions in the original post, this means E fighting tactics on the critical pass differs between planes.  

 I haven't much experience in the P-51s, but generally, the P-51D and Bf 109G-10 seems to represent the two different types of E-fighting styles.

 In the pure sense as a aggresive hunter-killer fighter, P-51D has most of the attributes needed: it is fast, very high maximum dive speed, good high speed control(aileron/elevator authority, good instantaneous turns, and armed with high velocity/accurate weapons.

 On the other hand, the Bf 109G-10 seems to me more of a 'defensive' E fighter. This is probably mainly due to its actual historical role and circumstances. It is fast, dives good but horrible high speed control, but what it lacks in control it makes up with astounding ability to climb.

 As a result, P-51s on their first diving pass usually seem to drop from directly above.  :eek: No doubt they have the ability to do so, and since its high speed handling is pleasant while rate of climb not very impressing, they use every ounce of energy gained on the "Boom" maneuver and directly turn it into a "Zoom" maneuver after the pass is done. I don't think I've seen many P-51s (good stick or bad alike)doing a low-6 pass on their first attack. Usually when I meet a P-51 they seem to come in from the 'traditional' high-6 angles.

 In contrast, Bf 109G-10s have horrible high speed handling. The energy gained during the dive cannot exceed 450mph, or you are in for one nasty trimming frenzy. As a result, the first attacking pass of 109s come usually from low-6 angles. Whatever dive they do they fall under the target plane, regain flight control by blowing off excessive speed in a shallow climb as they approach the target from low-6.

 For the P-51D, the "Boom" part of the manuever is directly connected to the attack. In the 109G-10, the attack comes right before the "Zoom" part.

 I am not suggesting more skill is needed to fly either P-51 or the 109G-10 (depending on the preference of the reader  :) ), just pointing out from my personal experience that the attacking styles seem to differ a lot(well.. I do admit its not that long an experience..  :D). Of course, this is a general observation, and in some cases a 109 may do a attack from high-6, or vice versa with P-51, but the general characteristics of the plane seems to dictate the style of E fighting in the more typical/usual cases.

 Another interesting example is how typically Japanese pilots like Mitsu or Blade use Spitfires or N1K2s as an E-fighter. In these planes, the general speed is not sufficiently high enough to provide 'lazy' E-fighting styles, and as much it is easier to chase down the enemy toe-to-toe in these planes, it is also easier to be shot down by planes of simular types by overwhelming odds after the chase is done.

 Their style of E-fighting seem to be very instinctive. At the first sight, they dive down steep angles without hesitation(pilots in the more orthodox E fighting planes such as P-51s, Fw 190s or Bf 109s etc.. generally seem to take up some time planning their move).

 Since those planes are very maneuverable in the turning sense, if the circumstances permit, after the "Boom" part they blow E off very suddenly by wild-but-logical maneuvers, and situate themselves behind the target. They change the fight suddenly from "BnZ" to "TnB". In this case, the Energy is used as sort of a 'boost' to get themselves behind enemy planes they normally wouldn't be able to in a co-E co-alt situation. E-fighting for (relatively) low-speed highly maneuverable planes usually take it in this style.

...

 Just thought it'd help to post if somebody didn't know about my little persoanl observation  :)

ps) And everything in this post is empirical. I'm sure there are other pilots who have different things to say  :) Carry on guyz.

Offline Kweassa

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2001, 01:49:00 AM »
Oh, and I heard of this nifty saying on E-fighting from my mentor    :)

   
Quote
" If provided the pilot skills are the same, the two adversaries do not make any dumb mistakes... the one fighting TnB will never win over a BnZ plane.

  In the BnZ style of E-management, you may not be able to win, but you certainly will not lose to a TnBer. In the TnB style of E-management you may kill a lot of other TnBers, but you will never win over a BnZer. "  - Raomi Rraf

 - thx a lot Sifu, I still remember this one.

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]

Offline Apar

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Something about E-Fighting
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2001, 06:30:00 AM »
The art of B&Z is being able to judge your opponents turn radius to be able to predict your lead shot aiming point (that is if he turns when seeing you coming in on him). It is not something you can calculate, but something you have to get a feeling for by judging his E-state and knowing the capabilities of his plane (good to fly as many different planes as possible to understand those capabilities).

If you B&Z a plane and you adjust your aiming point too late when he turns away, you will not be able to hit him because your turn radius is too large and the available closing distance between you and him too small at your high speed. But when you start your course correction in time (more available closing distance) you will only have to make small course corrections towards a predicted aiming point even at your high speed and inherent large turning radius.

If I B&Z a La-7 who's flying at 300 mph level my lead angle on him turning will be different from me attacking a A6M flying at 220 mph level. The turn radius of the A6M (or N1K2, SpitV, etc) in this example will be much smaller than that of the La-7 (or P51, P47, 109g6/g10, etc). Therefore my lead angle against the La-7 will be larger than my lead angle against the A6M in this example.
In this example you're still very much capable to make a very good lead shot at a much better turning plane at much lower E because his turn radius is relatively small and your lead shot needs relatively small course correction from your side especially when you B&Z from his high 6 and start your maneuver for that lead shot at large enough distance to him.
Wheter you'll be able to make that lead shot at the la-7 in this example depends very much on your initial closing distance to him.

So it boils down to a couple of things:
- knowing (feeling) turn capabilities of different planes at different speeds
- good estimation of E-states of the enemy planes
- start B&Z at large enough distance from him (but watch compression of your plane)
- early recognition of where he's turning to and reacting on it immidiately (the further away you correct your course the smaller the required course correction)
- patience, if you miss the first merge, extent, climb, position yourself and go in again (don't turn with him, only turn for your lead shot)

There many examples where you'll not be able to make that lead shot, e.g. when he changes his initial turn direction during that turn and your closing distance has become too small to correct for it. But than again there will be many instances where that doesn't happen and where you'll be able to make beautifull lead shots,  :D

As stated earlier by others B&Z-ing takes practise and patience. As long as you don't lose to much E during your attempts (don't let him lure you into turning too hard and bleed to much E) you can B&Z him a couple of times. By learning how to estimate your lead shots you'll get better at this.
A good way to practise it to some extent is to B&Z the off-line mode targets (they fly in a circle). Once you get good lead-angle shots at those, practise it with a buddy in the TA both flying different plane setups.


GL, cya up there,    :)

[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: Apar ]