Bombers - the more things change...

[Zanth]

Something odd has happened.  Remember when we had just plain ol' ordinary bombers and no formations?   What was it that they were trying to fix, anyone remember?  

Now instead we have kamikassi low level bombers, in formation with 3x the destructive and defensive power on 500' dive bombing or kentucky windage level runs from external view.   Heck bomber formations even up from capped fields as defensive fighters.

For me, the old way was better, and the new way has in fact degenerated into somethign a lot worse.  Maybe memories are kind, but I think a whole lot more "normal" bombing was going before formations too.

I was thinking this morning as I was getting ready for work how funny how the whole bomber thing thing has come full circle.  There is an old saying, " The more things change the more they remain the same."  Just an observation.

[Mitsu]

I don't like kamikassi low level bombing tactics by 4-engined heavy bombers. I'm thinking to improve this status now.

[JB73]

the old way, 1 b17 could come in at 20k and presision bomb out every strat at a field. i remember doing it, and watching others do it. just head into the base from where ever, and move across picking out targets, circle back and get the ones you missed.

IIRC there are like 20 250lb bombs in a b17, 1 bomb each strat, killed a base.

FH also were picked off easily by lancs.



the calibration was put in to stop that pinpoint damage, and to formations were added because the spread of the bombs would be more "historical" IIRC also.

[XrightyX]

Formations also provide "historical accuracy" to preserve the numbers balance between fighters and bombers.

Maybe an extreme simplification, but:

Most people in AH fly fighters, not a problem, notice the "Aces" part.  It's a game, so people can fly what they want.

But, there is a historical aspect to the game, and in WWII the allies were focused on bombing the crap out of Germany and Japan.  B-24s and B-17s were hitting Germany before they even had proper fighter escort.  P-47s and P-51s just showed up to support bomber formations.

Might be frustrating to have low level buffs--but I just consider them targets.  Very easy to get a 110 up to 5000 ft and then BnZ the buffs to shreds.

righty

[Zanth]

Yeah that's what I am getting at.   It is just the same now, you just don't have to spend a lot of time climbing or bothering with any bombsight at all. (In fact for a good number of folks they may as well removed the bombsight all together).

[TexMurphy]

Couldnt it be made so that the AI trys to avoid to crash?

If they are pulled into a dive they will try to recover that dive before they smack the ground.

Tex

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by XrightyX
Might be frustrating to have low level buffs--but I just consider them targets.  Very easy to get a 110 up to 5000 ft and then BnZ the buffs to shreds.
righty

Righty,
You've been gone for a few months. Here's the problem:

2xLancaster formations fly NOE to your base. No one knows they are coming. They suddenly arrive and either dive bomb in or level bomb from the F-3 view. In one pass they can take out all the FHs and VH. Now you can't up that 110 to stop them, and you weren't up before because they didn't show on DAR as approaching. On their second pass if they are good they can take down 50% of the town with their remaining bombs.

It's the most efficient way to kill a base now. In fact a single player can shut down a small field with one pass of Lancasters on the FHs.

It's pathetic to watch dive bombing Lancasters and B-17s.

There are still ongoing problems with buff damage transferring from a damaged plane to the other planes when the damaged plane blows up. Another reason not to fly buff formations at 20+K.  

I wish HTC would dump the buff formations and go back to the old laser site. That would end this non sense and we could go back to having fights with buffs at 20k+. The fields are larger now with more strat targets so the laser sight may not be as much of an issue.

Plus the fuel damage model has been changed. A buff can't stop flights out of a field by trashing the fuel depots. Even if you take out all the fuel depots, it has little effect on fuel availability at the field now.

And the 20K+ bombers show on the DAR bar from way out. If you are watching the DAR bars, you can see them up 2 sectors back from the front lines and moving towards a field.

I miss the historical 20K fights between buffs and fighters and escorts. I'd like to see them back again.

[mipoikel]

I like bombsight calibration thing and Id like to keep it. But I also see our problem.

How about 10-15 perks for formations? A Single bomber would be free.

[DoKGonZo]

How about this for an "easy" compromise:

If you're below 12K in the MA you only can control the weaponry on plane you're in within the formation. So when you jump to a gunner, you get your plane shooting back and no others. When you bomb, you can drop your planes bombs and no others.

So kamikaze bombers will still get 3 lives, but they won't be ack platforms and they will die a lot easier down low without the defensive firepower - and with needing multiple passes to drop ord. You'll probably get people more interested in hunting low level bombers when you remove the 3X defensive gunnery.

[Karnak]

DoKGonZo,

That would matter for the bombs, but not the guns.  The guns on the drones might as well not be there as it stands now.  The guns from the bombers converge at 500 yards, and given the distance apart the drones are if you are even 50 yards closer or further away the drone's guns will just be empting lead into the sky.

If I could only fire my bomber's guns and save the ammo on the drones for when I switched aircraft, I'd use it 100% of the time.

[DoKGonZo]

OK ... I'm just trying to find something that can be done quickly.


Given the way bombers are used now in the MA, there is no need whatsoever for formations. Maybe 1 bomber sortie in 5 (at best) bothers to climb over 5K, and then as often as not they come in to vultch in formations after they drop.

Were it me, I'd turn off formations for a campaign and let the chips fall where they may. Then lets have the real bomber advocates (who actually use the planes the right way) help figure a way to make formations work for them without being exploited. And I don't mean the knee-jerk "you wanna take away all strat" reactions - cuz there is no strat now - there is precious little true formation bombing - so lets be real.

[Pongo]

Disable the ability to drop bombs in F3 mode.
Make the laser sight available for single bombers.
Impose realisic G limits on the bombers. Especially when loaded.

[XrightyX]

I see the dilemma, and I've been trying to think of a good compromise, but I just can't.  

There have always been a lot of unrealistic behaviors in the MAI guess the best place to get mission oriented play is in Squad Ops on Fridays and Sundays.  Some people might find it boring, but heck, that's how it was:  Fly 6 hours, drop bombs when your leader did, fly home.  If you were a fighter--stay with the bombers, stay with the bombers, stay with the bombers.  No dropping down to furball.  

If I could ask for one change that would encourage high buff missions, it would be to place more emphasis/reward on bombing factories.  If I remember my history correctly, that was the primary mission of the 8th Air Force (?).  

But low-level (almost-) suicide missions weren't unheard of either.  There was some famous raid by B-24s on a refinary Hungary or Yugoslavia or something that came in at 500 ft.

Anyway, if HT provides a fix to this "problem", there will just be another innovation in tactics that will work around it--it used to be that 2 Tiffy's could shut down a big airfield, now no fuel porking is really allowed.  Art(law)'s missions could kill a small field with only 4 ponies, but now the towns are bigger so you need more people.

I see it just as humans over coming adversity at its best!

righty

[Cooley]

88mm/5inch Manned ack tower would help curtail this maybe

[DarkHawk]

I have one suggestion for dive bombing heavies. if the ROD (Rate of Decent) is greater than 200 feet per minute then the bombs will not drop from the bay.
and I like the idea that no bombs can be dropped from the F3 view.

DarkHawk  Bomber Pilot
DHawk Game ID