Author Topic: t34 (Read 1616 times)

Staga · « **Reply #30 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:31:58 PM »

"WW2 Ballistics: Armour and gunnery" gives charts and data how to calculate "effective armour" vs certain type of ammo.
T-34's glacis was 45mm thick and at 60dgr angle from horizontal. When against PzIV Ausf.H it would be shot with 75mm APCBC ammunition.
Books uses T/D ratio which is simple Thickness (of armour) / Diameter (of projectile).
45mm/75mm = 0,6
Now when looking at chart for APCBC ammo slope multipliers we'll see that at 60dgr angle T/D ratio of 0,6 gives armour multiplier ~2,7
So vs 75mm APCBC ammo T-34's 60dgr, 45mm glacis protects like 2,7x45= 121,5mm of armour at 0dgr angle.
German 75L48 penetrates that from ~500m if shot from straight ahead; if round comes in worse angle the penetration decreases fast.
Then again Russian 76L41 F-34 cannon should have hard time penetrating IV-H's 80mm front plate even from 100m at optimum angle, 50mm turret and mantlet easier, from 1500-2000m.

Pongo · « **Reply #31 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:40:29 PM »

Zanth if you can modify your drivers head position outside of the top of the hull then the T34 is modeld incorreclty. The tiger, panzer IV, even the sherman could do this. A t34 could not. As I have shown.
As to the effectiveness of anti aircraft MGs on tanks
The oposite is true. Tanks with AAMG where much more likly to kill aircraft then the aircraft where to kill them.
The soviets didnt have them on thier early T34s because they didnt have dedicated comander to man the thing. They learned very well that its an important fixture of a tank.
At the end of the war they routinely equiped thier heavy tanks with 12.7mm AAMGs. Had the war continued for another month in Europe the American M26 would have been routine including the version with 2 50 calls in the comanders coupola.

You have reversed reality. The AAMG or pintle gun was recognized as an absolute necessity for tanks by 1944.

They were way more likley to kill a persistant aircraft then bomber defensive guns were. All the advantages are with the tank.

The M4a3 75 with its 50 cal pintle will be maybe the best non perk tank in the game when introduced.

Staga · « **Reply #32 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:43:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
I am talking about a hull roof hatch for the driver that would allow him to raise his head for a good view while driving. There was no such thing.

No there weren't but it had a large hatch in front of driver: http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/museum/images/T34-85_1.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/museum/index.htm

Urchin · « **Reply #33 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:45:20 PM »

Pongo, are you seriously saying that tank commanders whos tanks were under strafing attack stayed at that MG to fire at the attacking aircraft?

That seems like a fantastic way to commit suicide.

Pongo · « **Reply #34 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:46:38 PM »

read my post.
Tanks were more deadly to aircraft then the reverse.
the AAMG can kill the aircraft. THe aircraft almost cannot kill the tank. Look at the development of equiping tanks with AAMG. Its self evident.

Pongo · « **Reply #35 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:49:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Staga
No there weren't but it had a large hatch in front of driver: http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/museum/images/T34-85_1.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/museum/index.htm

did you read my posts? I described that hatch in them. I posted a picture of it. If we want to remove the armour on the most signifigant 25% of the front aspect of the tank then go ahead and open that hatch in combat.

Urchin · « **Reply #36 on:** November 02, 2004, 04:50:19 PM »

Oh, I don't doubt that a .50 could kill an aircraft... but the bullets coming out of that aircraft would be able to shred the guy manning the AAMG, not to mention get inside the tank.

I'm definately not an expert, but it seems to me that being strafed by an airplane while your tank is unbuttoned is a quick way to make hamburger out of the tank commander.

Pongo · « **Reply #37 on:** November 02, 2004, 05:05:44 PM »

The task of the comander is easier and more safe then task that the fighter has chosen for itself.
You make it sound like the tank comander would be fool hardy to man his gun but the pilot is sensible to strafe a tank he cant hurt but that can very much hurt him. The only point on that tank that the strafer can hurt is about 1 foot square. The AAMG can hurt the plane all over.
Tanks evolved to have AAMGs because it is a very effective way to deal with fighter bombers.

Glasses · « **Reply #38 on:** November 02, 2004, 05:23:56 PM »

Give me a Pz V and we'll call it a day

Flyboy · « **Reply #39 on:** November 02, 2004, 06:22:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
Oh, I don't doubt that a .50 could kill an aircraft... but the bullets coming out of that aircraft would be able to shred the guy manning the AAMG, not to mention get inside the tank.

I'm definately not an expert, but it seems to me that being strafed by an airplane while your tank is unbuttoned is a quick way to make hamburger out of the tank commander.

what urchin said.

pongo you are deluding yourself if you think tank commanders went out of their tanks and shot strafing planes... that IS suicide

Arlo · « **Reply #40 on:** November 02, 2004, 07:29:24 PM »

Arlo drives a Russkie tank.

Vroom! Hey this thing accelerates! Don't like hills much. Hey Vladimir ... let me shoot the gun!

*boom*

Hey, Vladimir, you asleep? Reload!

Vladimir?

*chunk-a-thunk*

Thanks, Vlad!

*boom*

(Arlo waits)

Ok .... guess it loads slower or I got a one armed crewman loading.

Up top.

Ok ... why am I here? Better view? Target? No pintel mount, of course ... T-34s didn't have them. Eh, guess if I wanna look behind me ... that's bout it. Back to driver seat - get out Vlad.

Hmmmm .... hull gun ... hmmm ... oh yeah! (hits key 4).

Wtf? Whoa ... ok cool. Tank's modeled for us to look through a seperate hull mg sight. *budda budda budda* Haaaarrrrrrr!

Ok ..... crawl up the hill. Oh - steep drop off ... ok - wth ... here we goooooooooo!

(Arlo flips tank on top)

You ok, Vlad?

(Arlo goes to turret)

Hey! Man - these T34 turrets are tough! Spins around fine sittin on the ground. Vladimir, load!

*boom*

Cool!

BlueJ1 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 02, 2004, 07:45:37 PM »

Pongo · « **Reply #42 on:** November 02, 2004, 07:51:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
what urchin said.

pongo you are deluding yourself if you think tank commanders went out of their tanks and shot strafing planes... that IS suicide

flyboy. I dont know what your envisioning. But I am envisioning the crew comander using the machine gun as it was desgned for the purpose that it was designed.
You all seem to accept that a pilot is just reasonable to strafe a tank he cant hurt but that a tank comander is sucicidal to return fire against an aircraft that he can hurt.

History is on my side.
It is as suicidal for a fighter bomber to go arround staring down well armed tank as if he is invulnerable.
If fighters behaved that way at the end of the day there would be no fighters and lots of tanks.

Dont know what war or wars you guys are talking about.

I was responding to this.

"use arrow keys to modify driver position, you can then see fine. As for "anti-air capability" in any tank, that is an Aces High invention - not a product of history. It does seem unfair to only punish the Russians in the modeling though."
which is flat out incorrect. The russians identified this weakness in thier tanks and corrected it in later generations.

FOR A VERY GOOD REASON.
argue with history guys.
You cant hunt down aircraft in a medium tank. But if the aircraft uses a vulenerable attack you can criple him with resolute well armed return fire if you have the right gun.

Flyboy · « **Reply #43 on:** November 02, 2004, 09:55:35 PM »

pongo i agree with you that a fighter have avery low chance of doing any dammage to the tank itself BUT if any of the tanks crew pop out of the tank and expose himself directly to the fighter. he has a very high chance of becoming a shapeless red mush.

as a result.. i doubt anyone with common sense will get out of his releteve pretected tank (we agree the plane has a very low chance of harming the tank) and in to the hail of bullets.

Pongo · « **Reply #44 on:** November 03, 2004, 12:36:38 AM »

what do you envisoin he has to do? He is 60% covered in his hatch wich he can duck down in at any time in 1 second. He doesnt sit out side the tank. I aggree hes not likey to face down the direct strafe of the aircraft but right up to the last second he is in no danger and the aircraft is.