How do you perform a double immelman?

[RedDg]

Title says it all.

[MaddogJoe]

Build some speed, in a dive, or just flat lvl running. Pull up, and as you reach the top of the loop, roll aircraft 180 degrees....so your lvl again, and repeat.

Some aircraft will be very hard pressed to do a "double", where others can make a triple. It depends on how well the plane climbs, and maintains "E"

[DREDIOCK]

Same way you gt to carnagie hall. Practice practice practice. LOL

E
E is the key
And perhaps a notch or two of flaps on the second one depending on plane

Also dont pull on the stick too hard
You want to pull hard enough to do that manuver but not so hard you blow all your E

[DipStick]

Whipped this up, hope it helps RedDog.



PS... Glad to cya back bud.

[rabbidrabbit]

beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?

True but often you can get the persueing AC to bleed off more E trying to get a lead on ya by making him pull harder on the stick.
It also puts you in a very good position to come back down on your prey. Often just as he is finishing his first immelman.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
beyond being more evasive wouldn't it burn much more e than a smooth zoom climb?

The main point of a double Immelman (IMO, this is the way I always taught it) is surprise.  Of course it bleeds more E than a simple, smooth zoom climb.  But when you see your opponent climbing up and rolling level at the top of an immelman, most people will expect him to use his alt to make an attack without the higher speed of a BnZ.  Meaning, they expect him to engage, and will be trying to bring their nose (and guns) around to bear, or at least deny him an easy chance at locking onto your tail and not letting go.  Then he does something unexpected and begins climbing into another Immelman, and the other plane is left wallowing and has to dive away.  The higher plane can then roll out and make a diving pass, and if the situation is advantageous chop the throttle and saddle up on his 6.  Both planes are going to be at a fairly low E state.  The double Immel is mostly a delaying tactic to throw the other guy off his game and give you a chance for a 6 shot instead of having him facing you and ready for you.  

You have to judge your E state relative to your opponent's, your plane vs his, your skill vs his,  and decide if a double Immel is worthwhile, just like any other move.  It's definitely worthwhile to have in your book of tricks for the right moment.


Its also useful as a reverse of the split-s maneuver, although you wont see many people use it that way.  Except that instead of losing alt and keeping your speed, you lose speed and gain alt, without changing direction.  I do it sometimes to climb up to a bomber formation, as it slows me down enough that I have time to get back up to level speed before engaging, instead of climbing the entire time and coming into firing range with no speed to maneuver.

[Flyboy]

i use the double immelman alot in merges.. it usually ends up in me hanging the con below me...and thus ending the fight or giving me a major advantage

[beet1e]

How do you perform a double immelman?

Do a single immelman twice.

[Wotan]

Avoid 'gimmicks'...

Something like a 'double immelman' can be countered easy enough. The reason things like this work in AH is because the relative skill level in AH is extremely low.

Squad guys used to ask about 'scissors, ropes etc...'

For the most part these are just gimmicks used to exploit the ignorant.
A safer more efficient manuver is a spiral climb. Just tighten the sprial as you go, this will force the pursuer to pull more lead as he tries for a shot. Depending on the plane match up he will bleed more e and be left hanging.

In a spiral you can better manage your own energy state by either loosening the turn or decreasing your climb angle.

You also can maintain better SA just in case another bad guy joins the attack.

[Murdr]

Basic ACM's 1 The Immelman

The Immelman, or Immel is the most effective, and energy effecient way
to change your direction 180 degrees.
The Immel is simply a half loop up, commonly ending with a roll to
un-invert your plane at the top.
There are some exceptions depending o_n the plane type,but think of
turning your plane as you would a car. The slower you go
the tighter you can turn. This is why the immel is so effective, when
you turn your plane up, you have both the drag of your turn slowing you
and gravity. Its effecientcy comes from the fact that you are now
higher than when you started your turn. You have just converted speed
into altitude. You now have the option of trading that altitude
for speed if it is needed.

Flyboy nailed it.  The main point is for turning 180 after a merge.  If both planes turn 180 up, thats a 2nd merge.  New merge, same questions.  Are you going to turn 180?  What is the best turn to perform aginst what the other guy is doing?  Often it leads to another immelman.

Other uses being mentioned here are just secondary tactics.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by Wotan
Avoid 'gimmicks'...

Shhh Wotan!  The newbies don't need to know this, it might make them harder to kill!  Even worse, they might start learning how to have a good fight!

[FTJR]

Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.

Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you

a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?

or

b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.


(G'day Blue, long time)

[Redd]

Originally posted by FTJR
Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.

Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you

a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?

or

b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.


(G'day Blue, long time)

Hiya FTJR - also long time


(c) Pull tight , let him take the shot on the first immelman (even if you can take the shot), while he's taking shot , immel again , you will have position.

Taking a shot on the first immel , is effectively the same as taking a HO shot on merge, if you miss you will have lost position usually.

this is assuming same or similar planes and E  ( duelling type conditions)

Usually you can sum up pretty quickly after the first , and you can see what he's doing ,  to respond accordingly.


A series of immelmans like that is just basically using a number of vertical lead turns to get an advantage.

Never shoot  when nose to nose , always lead turn - well pretty much always  

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Wotan
Avoid 'gimmicks'...

Something like a 'double immelman' can be countered easy enough. The reason things like this work in AH is because the relative skill level in AH is extremely low.

Ahh but sometimes even the grisled veterans can get caught by a gimmick.

Got one just last night using the double. My A8 against his La7.

No need to embarrass him farther by saying who he was here.

He knows I got him and how, As do I.
and thats good enough for me.

Thing is when you do sucker someone like that there is that moment when you KNOW he's all yours. And you know he must know it too.
You can almost sence the profanities of the guy cussing himself out for being so stupid or the resolution of the person saying to themselves "Im dead"

Funny thing is its a move I havent done in a really long time. And didnt really even plan on doing it untill I did it Just seemed like the thing ta do