How do you perform a double immelman?

[WldThing]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ahh but sometimes even the grisled veterans can get caught by a gimmick.

Got one just last night using the double. My A8 against his La7.

No need to embarrass him farther by saying who he was here.

He knows I got him and how, As do I.
and thats good enough for me.

So this La7,  did he climb with you in the double immel?  A "real vet" would know when to climb and when not to,  depending on his E state,  cause im pretty damn sure if you guys were in the same Energy state upon the merge he would have outclimbed you,  double immel or no.

[SLO]

Bat is right in alot in sense...

mix spiral with double immel...use aircraft ability to tail move(109 is good at that)...try different combo's will only make you better.

Oh and and if you are doing vertical moves learn to out stall your enme...

[FiLtH]

Ive found in flight sims the worst thing you can do when trying to hang, is mix control inputs at the same time. Adding aileron, while using elevator,  seems to eat E really fast. Not sure how realistic this is, or if it matters in here much. Ive flown a certain way so long I dont think of that stuff so much anymore.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by FTJR
Can I throw this question in? Ok you are merging so both have noses down to try and get below each other as they cross.

Doing so they both pull up to immel back. Do you

a) pull tightly to try and get a snap shot at him before he does to you?

or

b) dont pull so tight, accept that he may get a snap shot in, then continue to double the immel to get above him and hold the advantage.


(G'day Blue, long time)

Hiya FTJR!  Yup long time.  I'm still on break from the game but will return soon after I move house next month...

In any situation where you're on a nose to nose merge I always recommend not to take the shot.  Use the time he's lining you up to gain angle on him by continuing a lead turn.  If you're worried about him taking his shot add some roll to your immel to make it the start of a spiral climb.

The only exception may be if you are at a serious disadvantage/low fuel/damaged etc then you may want to give him a quick squirt then continue on and extend to bug out...

[FTJR]

Hi Redd, yeah long time m8.

Thanks for the info, I have found, (and I haven't been in the MA for 6 months now) that when we are looping, looking over my shoulder I can see whether the guy is out turning me in the vertical, and I find if he is I instinctively push forward on the stick to try and get through his snap opportunity as quick as possible.

Once through that I  find that generally I dont have enough E to complete the second immel.

Should I fight the instinct?

From reading the above posts, does everyone accelerate in the level before attempting the 2nd immel. I always thought it was one continuous manouver?

[eh]

Whether or not you do the double immelman or the spiral climb depends upon the plane. You dont want to try a spiral climb in a Focke-Wulf or a P38. They are excellent in the vertical, so you stay with the immel or even double immel if you can get it. A P38 that tries the spiral climb is going to be in serious trouble against a 109 or spit for example, but a double immel can drain them of E in the vertical if they pull hard to get up to you after the first immel. It isn't a gimmick at all, and it doesn't depend upon a dweeb being the victim. And it takes more talent to actually pull a double immel off in Aces High than in any other flight sim out there. Those who can do it deserve the kill.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by FTJR
From reading the above posts, does everyone accelerate in the level before attempting the 2nd immel. I always thought it was one continuous manouver?

no.  continuous.  Only time Ive ever gathered speed was for a fourth immelman, and thats only when the other guy was too.

Oh, that "spiral" 180 is a chandelle.

[FTJR]

4th!!!, I can bearly get through the second. Im obviously suffering from
1: no talent
2: heavy handedness
3: no talent
4: no idea

Ok, please, in words of one syllable or less, how "hard" do you pull.. to the edge of blacking out? Or are you more or less pulling x amount of g 's,

In your particular plane, since those I know posting seem to have just the one ride, be it f6, p38 or p51. Do you aim to merge at a particular speed or is it dependent on your estimation of the enemy's E?

Thanks

[Wotan]

"spiral" 180

A chandelle is a climbing turn



What I mentioned was a 'spiral climb'...

Start with a wide angle and steep climb tightening the circle as you go up adjusting the climb angle to maintain energy. You are not climbing to reverse directions but to bled out the attacker.

You may make 2 or 3 360 rotations before your pursuer bleeds out. This is equally effective against an enemy with much greater energy. The faster he goes the wider his turning circle initially. If he pulls more lead he bleds quicker.

You due the same type of thing in a descending spiral.

You dont want to try a spiral climb in a Focke-Wulf or a P38. They are excellent in the vertical, so you stay with the immel or even double immel if you can get it.

A 190 certainly isn't 'excellent in the verticle' unless you already have an energy advantage, i.e. a zoom climb after a dive. If thats the case a double immelmen is the quickest way to give up that energy advantage.

A double immelmen is a gimmick in that if you fight against any one with sense it is easy to spot and easy to counter. Just like the vaunted 'scissors' or rope a dope. The reason these manuevers work in games and especially in AH is because on average the skill level is low.

[Redd]

Originally posted by FTJR
4th!!!, I can bearly get through the second. Im obviously suffering from
1: no talent
2: heavy handedness
3: no talent
4: no idea

Ok, please, in words of one syllable or less, how "hard" do you pull.. to the edge of blacking out? Or are you more or less pulling x amount of g 's,

In your particular plane, since those I know posting seem to have just the one ride, be it f6, p38 or p51. Do you aim to merge at a particular speed or is it dependent on your estimation of the enemy's E?

Thanks

if going for maximum turn rate and not caring about E retention  - usually keep roughly a 2 -3 inch diameter hole in the middle of the screen

Usually merge with as much speed as is possible in the given situation , fast gives you options that slow doesn't. You can get slower if you need to.

I wouldn't get too hung up on dbl immels's and stuff like that in the MA , its' more a DA type of merge move.

A more typical MA opening if you have the E adv would be say immelman going into a spiral perhaps ( as some have mentioned)


The engagements in the MA are more about using the strengths of your  plane and current situation/e-state against the weaknesses of his plane and current situation/e-state.

So merges are more driven by the plane types and their energy states than  moves that you might "want" to do.

eg i wouldn't probably ever contemplate a dbl immel against a spit  while in F6-f unless I knew I held a significant  (and perhaps hidden )   E advantage, to do it co-e would be suicide against a decent spit driver.

How many co-E same or similar plane engagements 1 on 1 do you have in the MA  ?  pretty rare

[Hajo]

Red Dog....in Ole Airwarrior we called it the "Cuban"...some call it the vertical eight also.

[stantond]

As a bit of trivia, Max Immelman never actually performed the maneuver named after him but instead used maneuvers similar to Chandelle's with rudder reversals.  The Fokker Eindecker (EIII) he few would not pull the G's required for the maneuver and had wing warping controls.   Later Fokker models allowed the Immelman.

The Chandelle is a more energy conserving maneuver than the Immelman but not necessarily an easier maneuver for air combat.  You must lose sight of your opponent momentarily when performing a Chandelle.


Regards,

Malta

[dedalos]

Great, so far we learned:
1) that if you 'surprize' the other guy with a double imel, his plane will be wably and he wont be able to follow you up.
Why?

2) that a spiral clime will cause the persuer to lose E because he will be 'forced' to pull harder on the stick to get a shot.
How dead are you if he just follows and he is in a better climing plane?  

Here is a question, Spit chased by 109g.  lets say 109 at 1k or 1.5k behind the spit.  Spit starts the spiral clime.  What do you think the results are going to be?  Try the same with the spit chasing the 109 without any assumptions.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by WldThing
So this La7,  did he climb with you in the double immel?  A "real vet" would know when to climb and when not to,  depending on his E state,  cause im pretty damn sure if you guys were in the same Energy state upon the merge he would have outclimbed you,  double immel or no.

Actually I came in on him from his 4:00 and slightly higher, He broke hard left at which point I went up originally intending just to loop over onto him and did my first immelman, I saw him starting to climb up to me which had I come down would have put me in an HO situation. LA7 drivers being what they are these days and since I already had 2 kills already I didnt feel like jousting so I went up again and did another giving 2 notches of flaps just as I reached the top.
 as I was comming over the top near as I can figure it looked like he was trying to immelman with me and didnt expect me to go for the second one (I was only barely able to pull it off and still maintain control) and didnt quite have the E to  pull the second one off before I came down on him.
As I came back at his 6 he wobbled his wings right then left as if not sure which way to try to turn to get out of the way and realising he didnt have the E to do so even if he did know but by then it was too late and the explosion of his plane soon followed.

Near as I can  figure while I did have some initial E advantage it wasnt by much. He blew a good chunk of he E on that hard left turn then blew more on the first immelman and  probably expected me to zoom away as opposed to going upand over. then he got suckered again when I went over again. probably either didnt figure I had the E for it or expected me to go level and try to fly away as I said I only barely did I managed to come back down on him just as he was starting  the second which he couldnt complete when I came back on him he was slow and probably near a stall.

Anyway it was fun. Dont do the move all that much and like I said at the time it seemed like the thing to do.

actually the only other time I remember doing it in AH was as a defencive move (out of desperation) against another La7 that was trying to rope me and went into a high loop and I managed to catch on his way down.
Was a really sweet move and the only time I've ever been accused of "cheating" till he saw his film of it at which point he aggreed.
but it was another one of those things where it seemed to be the thing to do at the time

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by dedalos
Great, so far we learned:
1) that if you 'surprize' the other guy with a double imel, his plane will be wably and he wont be able to follow you up.
Why?
If you caught him off guard he blew most of his E on going for the shot after the first Immel

2) that a spiral clime will cause the persuer to lose E because he will be 'forced' to pull harder on the stick to get a shot.
How dead are you if he just follows and he is in a better climing plane?
very dead if he has good gunnery skills and is near equal E state, the E state at the beginning of the spiral climb will be the determining factor  

Here is a question, Spit chased by 109g.  lets say 109 at 1k or 1.5k behind the spit.  Spit starts the spiral clime.  What do you think the results are going to be?  Try the same with the spit chasing the 109 without any assumptions.

depends on which spit and which 109G model, I would go with the 109 though most likely, unless spit had more E at the start in both instances

another thing to think of is instead of doing a true vertical immel, try pulling the Immel with an angle of around 70 degrees, this sometimes throws ya out of the views of the enemy ( forward up, up, back up, back) and also saves you some E........I am with Wotan on the Spiral Climb issue.....