Author Topic: Final Decision  (Read 6416 times)

Offline hawker238

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Final Decision
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2004, 09:15:57 AM »
This is a very interesting phenomena.  Thanks, MANDO.

Offline Zwerg

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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2004, 09:33:22 AM »
Make a program of this:                            :)

Initial switch left = real bomb. Your middle training bomb goes off.
Stay left:win
Change to right:loose

Initial switch left = real bomb. Your right training bomb goes off.
Stay left:win
Change to middle:loose

Initial switch middle = training bomb. Your right training bomb goes off.
Stay middle:loose
Change to left:win

Initial switch right = training bomb. Your middle training bomb goes off.
Stay right:loose
Change to left:win

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2004, 10:45:15 AM »
This is an interesting problem, and I think that Alf, ccvi, and Blauk have it right.  The critical difference between the Monte Hall scenario and the one Mandoble proposed is that in the Monte Hall scenario, it is a given when one is partitioning the sample space that Monte will always select a door hiding a goat.   That, of course, is not true in Mandoble's scenario--the bomb that was dropped might have been (with 1/3 probability) the live bomb.  

The reason that this is important is that in the Monte Hall case, you know that you've got a 1/3 chance of having selected the correct door and a 2/3 chance that you're wrong.  Once Monte shows you one of the two wrong choices, which he will always do, there's still just a 1/3 chance that your initial choice is correct.  By switching, then, you'll increase your chances of being correct to 2/3.

We can represent the difference mathematically using a priori sample spaces, in which we assign probabilities to all of the permutations in the two cases.  Here are the two a priori sample spaces, which show the initially selected choice followed by the revealed choice.  The three options are labeled C (correct), I1 (incorrect choice #1), and I2 (incorrect choice #2).

Monte Hall:

C  I1  1/6 chance
C  I2  1/6 chance
I1 I2  1/3 chance
I2 I1  1/3 chance

Mandoble:

C  I1 1/6 chance
C  I2 1/6 chance
I1 I2 1/6 chance
I1 C  1/6 chance
I2 I1 1/6 chance
I2 C  1/6 chance

As you can see, the critical difference between the two cases is that in the Monte Hall case, when the initial selection is incorrect, the revealed choice will always be the other incorrect choice.  In the Mandoble case, on the other hand, when the initial selection is incorrect, the revealed choice (i.e., the dropped bomb) may be either correct (i.e., live bomb) or incorrect.

If we define event A to be that the initial choice is correct and event B to be that the revealed choice is incorrect, our a priori sample spaces yield the following probabilies:

Monte Hall:

P(AB) = 1/3 (i.e., probability of both A and B happening, or the sum of the probabilities of the first two lines of Monte's chart)
P(B)  = 1   (i.e., Monte ALWAYS reveals a door with the incorrect choice)

Mandoble:

P(AB) = 1/3 (same as Monte)
P(B)  = 4 * 1/6 = 2/3 (i.e., sum of the rows 1, 2, 3, and 5 of Mandoble's chart)

From basic statistics, we know that the probability of A given B, which is often written P(A|B), can be calculated as follows:

P(A|B) = P(AB) / P(B)

Plugging in our numbers, we see that in Monte's case,

P(A|B) = (1/3) / 1 = 1/3 ==> 1/3 chance that our initial guess was correct, given that Monte revealed an incorrect choice.  Thus, there is a 2/3 chance that if we switch, we'll win the car.

In Mandoble's case,

P(A|B) = (1/3) / (2/3) = 1/2 ==> there's a 1/2 chance that the initial selection was the live bomb, given that the revealed bomb was a dud.

Best regards,

JNOV
« Last Edit: November 28, 2004, 10:47:47 AM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline MANDO

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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2004, 11:13:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
P(A|B) = (1/3) / (2/3) = 1/2 ==> there's a 1/2 chance that the initial selection was the live bomb, given that the revealed bomb was a dud.


Wrong. Initial selection is fully random between three pilons. Real bomb is fully ramdom between the three pilons. Initial selection has 1/3 always. The dud bomb is revealed later. The funny point is that you cannot change the history of the events without changing the final probability of success.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2004, 11:22:25 AM »
No, I'm correct, and, what's more, my analysis agrees with you.  The initial selection is fully random and has a 1/3 probability of being correct.  That's event A, and if you notice, its probability is 1/3 in my analysis.  The catch is that the probability of event B (i.e., of the revealed choice being incorrect) is only 2/3, not 1 as in the Monte Hall case.  

The charts in my post set out the a priori probabilities.  That is, they are the probabilities of events before the "experiment" begins.  And the key is that your hypothetical, unlike the Monte Hall scenario, doesn't have an a priori rule that the revealed choice will always be incorrect.  Perhaps you think you specified a Monte-Hall-type scenario, but as I read it, you did not.

- JNOV

Offline MANDO

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« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2004, 11:52:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LoneStarBuckeye
your hypothetical, unlike the Monte Hall scenario, doesn't have an a priori rule that the revealed choice will always be incorrect.  


But if the revealed bomb is green (the real), the pilot will not attack, he will RTB.

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2004, 11:54:53 AM »
Your car has been making strange noises for a few times. Everytime that happend you went to the garage and they replaced a spark plug.

Now your car is making strange noises again. You're learning by immitation and replace a spark plug yourself.

But your car still makes strange noises.



You cannot transfer the solution of one problem to another problem without verifying that the premises are the same.

That's also the problem with todays engineering. Lot's of fomulae are beeing taught, but the premises under which they are valid or even the approximations used to derive them are kept in the dark.

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2004, 11:56:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
But if the revealed bomb is green (the real), the pilot will not attack, he will RTB.


But this wont prevent a mechanical failure from dropping a real bomb. In the scenario the pilot was lucky that a dud dropped.

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2004, 11:59:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
But if the revealed bomb is green (the real), the pilot will not attack, he will RTB.
Whether the pilot attacks or RTBs is immaterial; when the dropped bomb is revealed, the experiment is over.

Offline BlauK

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« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2004, 12:10:58 PM »
For some reason I tend to meve to Mando's side...

Why would it matter how the door with a goat is selected, or that it just happened to be the dud that dropped by itself. In both cases we are NOW in a situation with 2 choices, of which one is already selected. The question is: "Should you switch the selection now?". It is the same question in both cases because the one possibility is now dropped and identified. The question is about probability of benefit of switching and not switching... is it not? It is not about selecting one or other... it is about switching the selection. That is the difference.... I suppose :)

I tried to search the internet for pages which explain how the Monty Hall case has been proven false... but did not find any.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline MANDO

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« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2004, 12:21:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
not? It is not about selecting one or other... it is about switching the selection. That is the difference.... I suppose :)


Exactly :aok

Offline ccvi

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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2004, 12:28:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
Why would it matter how the door with a goat is selected, or that it just happened to be the dud that dropped by itself. In both cases we are NOW in a situation with 2 choices, of which one is already selected.


Those scenarios are not equal. Think about the large number of bombs version.

The probability of having the leveler initially set to the right bomb is low.
The probability that the real bomb does not drop when all but two bombs drop is also low. In this scenario this is the case because of luck. The situation the pilot is in is rare.
As a result, the probabilities that one or the other bomb is real are equal.

If some greater beeing ensures that the real bomb is never dropped, you're comparing the low probability of the leveler beeing initially set to the right bomb, and an extremely high probability of the other bomb beeing real.

But there is no such greater beeing that influences mechanical failures.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2004, 12:37:32 PM »
You fly back with both bombs, land, round up Moe, Larry and Curly and show them the difference between the color green and the color red. You then request their transfer to the infantry where color blindness isn't as critical (well it probably is but you request it anyway).

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2004, 12:40:42 PM »
The difficulty in comparing the two situations comes from not looking at the a priori probabilities.  ccvi is quite right; the two situations are not equivalent.  Indeed, to make Mandoble's hypothetical equivalent to the Monte Hall scenario, one would have to specify, a priori (e.g., before the pilot takes off), that a bomb will fall before the pilot signals its release AND that it will be one of the two incorrect (i.e., dud) bombs.  In that case, switching to the other remaining bomb would increase the chances of dropping the correct bomb to 2/3.  With that qualifcation, Mandoble's a priori sample space would change to look like this:

C  I1 1/6 chance
C  I2 1/6 chance
I1 I2 1/3 chance
I2 I1 1/3 chance

In that case, P(AB) = 1/6 + 1/6 = 1/3, and P(B) = 1.  Thus, P(A|B) = P(AB) / P(B) = 1/3, just as in the Monte Hall scenario.

Without such a qualification, the two remaining choices have equal (i.e., 1/2) probability of being correct, as my foregoing analysis shows.

- JNOV
« Last Edit: November 28, 2004, 12:49:26 PM by LoneStarBuckeye »

Offline MANDO

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« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2004, 02:52:27 PM »
LoneStarBuckeye, my example was just that. Read the case at the beginning.

1 - The lost bomb is always training, being real one the pillot will abort the mission and case is over.
2 - THE INITIAL LEVER POSITION DOES NOT COINCIDE WITH THE LOST BOMB <- KEY RULE
3 - The pilot perceives the lost bomb (pylon and color).

The program works that way and demostrates 1/3 for "I wont change never", 1/2 for "may be I'll change" and 2/3 for "I always change".

While the pilot ignores rule 2, the real chances do not vary.