"HOG" Fightin' , Help please !

[Saintaw]

Hello again, Mr Question is back  
This one is about BnZ fighting...

I got the overall idea now on how to fight the E fighter now, but still have a couple of Q's...

I am usualy in trouble when Going down on the target, meaning : there is a furball at 3-5K and I am circling it at 10-15K, then zoom in...at high speed...

This is the part I find difficult still : when lining up the target, I only have a couple of seconds (And the bugger won't of course fly straight!!!   ) Am using rudder the best I can, but since I put in on the second coolie hat of my Joystick (Seriously considering buying pedals in a couple of months, but untill then, the coolie will have to do....). OOps, I got lost there, back to it...

Ok, I'm zooming on the guy, he's circling, following a frienly, and since time goes by verry fast, I have a VERRY hard time and VERRY little time to line him up ! Getting a shot on tgt at high speed is tough, so...should I throttle back to idle before going down ? I usualy come at the target pretty high, kinda like 30/40 deg high...(trying to be in his six). Is this the right way to do things ???

Another Question :
I read everywhere (and Lepht told me the same...) STAY VERTICAL WITH THE HOG !!!  
What does that mean exactly, I mean do i only use loops, half loops and split S to change direction ? Will I not retain more E is I don't go up? please someone explain

Last one :
I hear also poeple say : Don't pull more than 3 G's....did i miss the G-meter in my Cockpit ?  

ok, Last one for today (I think...), Cheers


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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[JENG]

Heya saintaw

question 1 :
1)be patient... you've got lots of fuel so no need to get in right away... first examine the situation...(how many cons, how many friendlies, hight of both cons and friendlies, etc). In short assesing your enviroment (situational awareness).

2)If everything clear, pick a victim... best ones are those chasing a friendly... since they are probably not watching their 6

3) Consider your approach... best is 4 oc or 7 oc then dive on him (best is no more then 4 K above him). In short try to surprise your victime (i.e. bounce)

4)Try to get under him... so dive for example from 3 K higher and dive under his 6 (point your nose a little in front of him, since he's moving too, and below him) That way he can't see you that well... Everybody checks his high 6... so you'll be caught almost every time... If you are under him (with a wallop of E) he can't see you  

5)If he sees you and he breaks... you can go for the snapshot... that is don't keep following his 6... just turn slightly to get a chance at shooting him.

6)If you miss... just zoom up with gentle G and hit WEP to get most out of your zoomclimb... then tulips your situation again ... BnZ is always a game of patience...(at least until you refine your methode and get better at gunnery)

7) F4u has a good initial turnrate you can use that to get in more pings... but never turn more then 90°... you'll use to much E that way.

Personaly I don't cut throttle on dives since I hate to loose my E... but I know some very good E-pilots who do ... so it's realy up to you.

Question 2:
A good advice staying vertical... it's best not to turn flat (horizontal in a pony, fw or F4u) but it's not always the case... speed is more important then altitude...

For example when you encounter higher bogies it's best not to climb to them since you'll loose speed.

When attacking it's best to use the vertical allways in a BnZ plane... but you can move aggressive moves. For example... you are diving on a bogie with alot of E and you see him break... just pull your nose up gently and roll your plane gently in his break (he breaks right you pull up and roll right)... you are now above him (more E) and can watch him... then you just roll your plane into him and dive on to him (=high YoYo). Since you used the vertical... you could get into his turn and shoot him... something you would not have been able to do if you had just followed his turn.

Question 3: The G meter is the little dial with has numbers from 1 to 9... don't know it's location in F4u by heart...

Sorry for the long post... but hope it helped a bit.

Bee
'Nemo impune lacessit'

[Rocket]

One other note.  I case of deep dodo and you find yourself low in the hawg and getting slow.  You can with lotsa practice (and dying) end up making a couple of turns with a bogey.  It isn't advisable with other bad guys in the area because you are just asking someone to swoop in and kill ya.  But by dropping a notch or two of flap you can get around a little quicker. NOTE:  Spits will eat you for lunch!!!!

I have done this several times too many. I sometimes get impatient and end up turning.  It isn't the best thing to do but can be done.  It can't be a flat turn tho.  Work the nose down in the corner, or up, and "cut the corner".  When you end up killing a 205 this way watch as the pilot in open cons asks "How the hell did you out friggin turn me".  I still have 214CaveJ scratchin his head  

Lo and Slo = DEAD.  Always turn as the very last option.  You may end up with the kill but if anyone else bad is around you will be dead for the effort.

Rocket

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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de

[Saintaw]

Thanks a lot JenG, this is verry clear, I will practice it this way...starting tonight  

It is true that the kill I had yesterday was the guy following another...that is when i used to get shot btw, in a Spit, following a con...


Diving under him : CC

I now understand the Term "vertical" better...will do that as well...looks like I am going to rudder play that one...

Again, thx, this is verry clear !

Cheers, Rocket, I will try that as well when i have mastered the BnZ method...i'd like to get my ratio going up a bit (616 today, sigh...)
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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-21-2000).]

[214CaveJ]

yeah, rocket pulled a good one on me near f20 a few days ago.  He was already in a pretty low E state when I botched me first pass on him and he burned what little he had in a couple of turns with me macchi.  Then I believe we scissored a few times and I started into a spiral climb, gaining both lateral and vertical seperation.  Then I screwed up big, turning back into rocket too early (even if he hadn't had this trick up 'is sleeve I turned too early) and about stalled it by pulling too hard.

Was a good fight rocket, wish I'd had the recorder going =)

[combat23]

Any of the planes will get hard to roll if they are going fast enough. The BnZ planes retain roll control at higher speeds.

Find out at what speed you start to loose roll control in the plane you are flying. Then find out how fast you get to that speed when diving at different throttle settings.Ie: at 20k full throttle start to loose roll control at speed xxx reached in 4k of alt lost.

When you know these values for your plane you can control it on a long dive so you arive at your chosen alt going as fast as possiable while still able to roll quickly.

BTW as a new guy myself I under stand the concept but suck at doing it. I Get buck fevor real bad. Get shot down ALOT!!  

see ya on line

[Saintaw]

Hehehe, Combat, that sounds familliar   ...

Also what happened, is that when pulling out of the dive, I pulled too hard, and lost my wings... (I know I shouldn't do it, but I couldn't help my reflexes...I guess I will learn with experience)

The Hog didn't fly as well after those wings were gone...fast, ok, but nooooo good  

1h 30 mins before I get up there  


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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-21-2000).]

[spinny]

"I read everywhere (and Lepht told me the same...) STAY VERTICAL WITH THE HOG !!!
What does that mean exactly."

That means do not give up your altitude advantage unless you are sure of the shot/kill. If you dive on someone, and miss, immediately go vert and try and regain the alt advantage. Remember, alt and speed=life, and that E can also be potential E.

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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X

[JENG]

Thanks Saintaw... don't worry you'll get better all the time... you are already ahead of me since it took me about 4 months before I even heard of Boom and Zoom... my only world back then was pull as hard as I could to get on his tail and spin out almost every time  

And don't worry about pulling your stick to hard... I also lose patience alot... pull the stick to force a kill and end up low and slow, in short.... death  

Also remember that alot of the guys flying here are the top of the foodchain... with literaly years of experience... and even they make mistakes  

And continue flying with lephturn.. he realy is top notch... you, me about everybody can learn alot from him

Bee
Nemo impune lacessit

BTW: I fly with the handle bee so if you see me online I'd love to fly a sortie with ya  

[Saintaw]

LOL  
Roger that Jeng/Bee willco ! They are going to laugh then, when they will see both of us arriving with our brown pants on in our blue birds  
(Yeah, yeah...laugh, laugh....wait untill we improve   )

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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[Lephturn]

*blush*

You guys haven't seen me die enough to know any better I guess. <G>  I guess my advice tends to be pretty good... it's following it myself that is the hard part.    I enjoy winging with other folks who want to learn as then I DO tend to try and follow my own rules and I fly much better.  

Now to your questions SaintAW:

Yep, try to have a verticle component in all of your reversals.  If there are no bad guys around as high as you are, you can do a WEP zoom up as high as you can go to maximize the E you retain.  Basically, the worst thing you can do is a flat turn in an E fighter, because it burns precious E that you can't get back.  The Hawg doesn't climb very well, so be aware that if you burn your E you will have to egress the fight and grab alt. before you can engage again.  To get around this, you put as much verticle into your moves as you can.  I usually don't go exactly verticle, as it makes you too predictable.  My bread and butter reversal is a slightly oblique immelman, and a split-S oblique is my "run away" move.  Try to roll a bit as you go up or down and have a bit of an angle each time.  The trick is knowing when to go up, and when to go down.  Generally, if you have more E, go up, if bad guy has more E, go down.  In either situation, watch that G meter and keep it under 3 G's for best results.  In a merge, you almost ALWAYS want to go up so that gravity helps you turn on the top.  This is one reason to stay fast, so you always have the speed to do an upwards verticle move.  If the bogey is higher and faster than you, and you are slow, you must go down.  At this point, you are looking to point down and run away.  Don't push a disadvantage in a Hawg.. you'll lose.  It doesn't have the accelleration or climb-rate to consistently turn the tables against greater E opponents.  E fighting is about all the Hawg does well, so if you don't have an E advantage at the start of a fight, don't engage.  Most of my deaths come from engaging when I shouldn't... but hey, planes are free and I don't worry about score.  

As others mentioned above.. you need to be smooth and gentle with the stick.  Learn to execute a pass without breaking 3G's.  You must be patient... remember you CAN'T slow down if you want to live in this bird.  If the target breaks and you can't get a good shot, don't push it.  You are better to just smoothly pull up and zoom away.  Then set up and lather-rinse-repeat.  It will be the rare pilot that you won't nail eventually, but if you slowed down to try and get him... and miss.. you are dogmeat.  Even if you do get him, if you slowed up, the next bad guy to come along has a big blue target that can't get away.

One other note... beware certain planes that can accellerate quickly.  N1k's, 109's, and to some extent Spits.. they climb well, accell fast, and out-turn you to boot.  I can't tell you how many times I've made a pass on a N1k.. pushed it a bit too far, and then watched him accell and follow me up and chew my tail feathers (and wings.. and fuselage) off.  Extra respect is needed with the quick-accelerating planes.  The FW is also a good accellerating plane, but it is one of the few the Hawg is a match for in other areas, so it isn't as dangerous.  The F4U rolls almost as well as the FW, and you can out-turn it, so use that to your advantage when fighting them.

Well... I hope that helps some of the newer Hawg-O-philes out there. <G>  I know I can't wait to try out the new F4U-1C with the cannons.    Not sure though... I like the .50's.  One day I'll get my P47D and I'll have the best of BOTH worlds. <G>



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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[combat23]

AHMEN TO THE 47D. Eight 50's! makes me start to drool just thinking about it. Not much climb rate but can roll with the best of them at speed.

see ya on line

[humble]

One of the most misunderstood aspects of working a furball is the appropriate positioning of a B&Z fighter. As a dedicated pop & chop driver i'm usually on wrong end of this equation however i spent a couple years as a good 190/pony driver at beginning.

So...

1) never initiate an attack from above the furball

2) decide before hand who your victim will be by "style".
  a) an other B&Zer
  b) an E fighter working the top half of the
     furball
  c) a T&Ber working a kill

Each requires a different approach, for a B&Zer fly over furball by 3-4 K (hor. seperation) and roll down to under furball if possible, cruise thru furball as fast as possible looking for a B&Zer ahead and above you..often your a little faster since you didnt maximize for kill speed so you can tuck into blind spot as he ajusts on his target..as he exits furball you stay in lag pursuit below and behind..as he pulls up to vertical you can zoom in for easy shot.

For E fighter you need to be at bottom of furball at high speed but slightly less than above. your looking for someone working top of furball..diving down for snap shot and going up but not actually leaving the fight. ideally you'll catch him hanging as he looks for new victim. you want to be zooming up tru the furball..(check for someone shadowing you ala above)

Last is the dedicated T&BEr..the furball is a series of interlocking turnfights that drop lower and lower. Approach from the center line of the furball looking at the lower fights (slower planes with less E usually). your speed here will be slower than above. The goal is to be accelerating out of dodge but still have full roll capability to adjust. I used to approach at 275 or so pick a target that gave me best exit..and aim for bout 325 at time of shot with a goal of 375 or so as I cleared furball.

[Lephturn]

Good tips.  But I would add something to your order of attack.  Your general play styles will generally determine E state, so in that way it's right on, but I think one needs to be more general about E states before considering fighting styles.

First target should usually be the highest con.  Scratch that.. the con with the most E.  A lower high-speed enemy might be able to zoom up to you, so he would be a high-priority target as well.  You have to watch and try to pick out the dangerous guys, ones with a bunch of speed or altitude.  When you see a 109 sneaking out to the edge of the furball and climbing... he's likely coming for you.  On the upside of this equation, if you can get that a guy away from the big furball and with an advantage, you are in a stronger position since there aren't all his buddies around waiting for you to come down to them.

If you are careful you can even sucker the higher guys into a rope-a-dope.  For those new to this game, a rope-a-dope is where you try to entice an enemy with much lower E to try to follow you up vertically.  When he stalls out at the top of his zoom, you can pull over the top and have a big fat target for an easy kill.  The trick is to get good at judging the enemy's E state, since if you blow it on a good climbing/accelling plane, he WILL stay with you, at least long enough to gun you down.  When it works though, it is really sweet because you know you flat suckered the guy. <G>  A good E fighter can do this move well by hiding his E in speed and not using a direct approach to make the closure rate look smaller.  Beware that you know your plane and your enemy's plane very well to try this one so you can be sure you have enough of an advantage to try it.  Also there must not be any high enemy lurking around, since at the top you are a prime target for anybody high enough to get you.

The reverse move to this I call the slam-a-dope.  To do this I use a series of split-S'es to sucker a Spit or a 109 into diving with me.  This works best against the Spit, since they dive very well and can't bleed speed to save their life.  There is nothing sweeter than suckering an enemy who thinks he is "bouncing" you into colliding with the ground or ripping his wings off. <G>  Generally this works well in a 51 or F4U, but it's best done in a P47D.  Again you must know your enemy's plane quite well, enough to know the speed where it locks up and becomes hard to control.  You can sometimes ride the edge of that envelope until close to the ground, and then pull out and watch him slam into the ground at a high rate of speed. <G>  Sometimes you won't even get the kill, but it has to be one of the most satisfying kills in the game.  



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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[Saintaw]

Hey  ...Looks like when i was Studying Win NT, it was easier, LOL ! Anyway, I think this thread is worth a "print"...

I still have a lot of trouble when comming down on the enemy : Since I am still a "dweeb", or whatever it is called, I don't like loosing Visual on him...I end up getting him in my 11 or 1 O clock and come down very very fast...and often overshoot him before I have a chance of lining him up...

Had 2 Kills yesterday (Died 4 times  ...) One was a lucky Ho, the other was pretty cool, got under a 109 that was fixed on his tgt, and shot a 2sec burst from 500 to 200 ft !

It is sometimes nice to see plane parts flying down that are not yours  


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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."